From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Delete variables obsolete since Emacs 23 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <90fab6ce-97cd-4fe0-8a8f-ba02edfb86dd@default> References: > <83r1s4ftc7.fsf@gnu.org>> <9d080d6b-d7b5-4e56-ae47-2fbc8eb97da2@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2154"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, Jeff Norden , emacs-devel@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, ghe@sdf.org, Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 18 22:28:03 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k88DC-0000Pd-JZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/08/18 16:21:56 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -53 X-Spam_score: -5.4 X-Spam_bar: ----- X-Spam_report: (-5.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:253976 Archived-At: > >> I think the gentle annoyance we have now strikes the right balance > >> between not letting people forget the fact of obsolescence and not > >> annoying them too much. We are talking to adults, not to children, so > >> we can rely on them doing TRT. > > > > +1. It's obsolete, but we leave it in the product, >=20 > That is not what he said. Eli can weigh in on whether it is or isn't. Isn't that exactly what "we have now": declaration of obsolescence, without removal? That's what I understood by "the gentle annoyance we have now". And I agree that that "strikes the right balance" by (1) reminding about obsolescence and (2) not annoying too much. > > so as to not annoy those who don't, or can't > > easily, work around its absence. >=20 > If there's no intention to remove it in the future, > then we don't declare it obsolete. Is that written on the foundation stone of GNU Emacs somewhere? That's not how deprecation/obsolescence is viewed in general, e.g. outside Emacs. Something is deprecated or declared obsolete because we no longer want to commit to its active development, for WHATEVER reason (and the reasons can be several). Often, that's because some other, better thing replaces it, but that's not a requirement. Not wanting to commit to active development (e.g. improvement, new features) is not the same thing as an intention to remove. I think you have a very (unnecessarily) strong view of deprecation. One of the main ideas behind deprecation is to NOT tie your hands wrt future decisions. All that's decided is, so far, to not develop the thing further. The message to users is (1) the thing is still supported (it's not removed), but only AS IS, so (2) don't expect further development. Removing something is what's normally called "desupport": XYZ is no longer supported. Trying to use it raises an error, or is ignored (no-op), etc. You _cannot_ use something that's _desupported_. You're advised/warned that you might not want to use something that's deprecated. Even for commercial software, there are quite often features that are deprecated with NO intention to _ever_ remove them. Why? Because of an existing customer base, with legacy code.