From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Modernize frame-title-format: "%b - GNU Emacs" Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 09:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8f1fe768-eafe-47b2-ad66-bfc29f895322@default> References: <86d03bpqsw.fsf@protonmail.com> <4276dbad-f8ed-4a5d-8960-800b4b059a61@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18698"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Wayne Harris , Emacs developers To: Yuri Khan Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 29 18:38:17 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kC3rs-0004m9-US for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2130.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/08/29 12:37:42 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -53 X-Spam_score: -5.4 X-Spam_bar: ----- X-Spam_report: (-5.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.959, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254391 Archived-At: > > Sure. But see below (you quoted, but didn't address). > > Even if someone agrees that the app name should be > > present, should it really be leftmost? >=20 > Not leftmost but righmost, by convention and by your own argument that > the most specific information should stay when the title is truncated. Thanks; I misunderstood you. I have no problem with appending that (or anything else). I thought you were suggesting prepending, as if that were the most important info to see. > > And how often is the app name really helpful? >=20 > This is a trick question. You=E2=80=99re challenging the convention here, > asking me to find an excuse to not follow it. It wasn't meant as a trick question. Where is this convention defined? Is it a real "thing" - some standard or something, or is it just that you've noticed that many apps use such naming? I'm not challenging you; just curious about this. > > > > How common is the use of multiple applications > > > > (in separate window-mgr windows) for the same > > > > file or directory (or other argument)? > > > > ? How often, for the same file? If you see only the > > file or dir name, is it hard to know that the app is > > Emacs? Most of the time? >=20 > I might have a Dired for the root directory of an application project > open in Emacs, and the actual application running in a second window. > Both will have the same title in your proposed scheme. >=20 > I might be editing an HTML file in Emacs and previewing it in Firefox, > and it might not have a yet. You want me to look at titles and > mentally say =E2=80=9CThis one is =E2=80=98index.html - Mozilla Firefox= =E2=80=99, so that one > =E2=80=98index.html=E2=80=99 must be Emacs=E2=80=9D? OK. If I were in your shoes in that context I'd configure my frame titles to fit such use cases. I don't see that as important for the default case. But I may well be mistaken wrt how common your case is. > > I argued to put the more specific info first, i.e., > > leftmost. The app name is less specific than the file > > name etc. >=20 > The convention already does this. Good. So we're in agreement about the only thing I've really argued for. > > Imagine if every one of your browser windows had "Google > > Chrome" or "Firefox" or "Internet Explorer" or "Brave" > > as its leftmost text. Imagine how useful/useless that > > would be for picking a window out of a task-bar list, > > a set of tabs, or any other list. Imagine if every > > mail-client window had the client name at the far left: > > "Outlook" or whatever. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t need to imagine it, I *remember* it. (Me too. And I still see it here and there. And I don't like it.) > > What I see in the title bar for a Chrome or Brave or > > Firefox or IE browser is this, from the left: > > > > 1. A site icon. E.g. fancy "T" for New York Times site. > > 2. A page title, possibly with a subtitle. E.g. > > "Opinion | Kenosha Tells Us More About Where the Right > > Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did". > > > > That means I can easily pick out that web page by its > > app icon and page title. Would you really prefer that > > the frame title be something like this? > > > > "Google Chrome <NYT icon> Opinion | Kenosha Tells Us More > > About Where the Right Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did" > > > > Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you. I hope so. >=20 > Yes you are. Ideally: > <Chrome icon> Kenosha Tells Us More > About Where the Right Is Headed Than the R.N.C. Did | Opinion =E2=80=93 G= oogle Chrome >=20 > possibly abbreviated to: > <Chrome icon> Kenosha Tells=E2=80=A6 >=20 > (The web site icon totally does not belong in a browser title bar, > because then a web site could impersonate a locally installed > application, at least until the user activates the window and sees the > address bar.) We'll have to disagree about that last part, I guess. > >> It=E2=80=99s a convention, >=20 > > Maybe some places, i.e., for some apps. I don't see > > it for most apps, including web browsers and mail > > client, on MS Windows. (And you did mention "Windows.) >=20 > I do not know which browsers and mail clients you use but Firefox and > Thunderbird do append =E2=80=9C- Mozilla Firefox=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C- = Thunderbird=E2=80=9D to every > title, at least for me on GNU/Linux, and I remember it being that way > back when I was using Windows. On Windows I don't see it in Firefox, Google Chrome, IE, or Brave (chromium). But I guess I'm not really seeing a frame (wm window) title. As those browsers all use tabs, it's the tab title I guess I've been talking about, for a browser. I don't see a separate window title. And googling for that suggests that you need to fiddle or use an add-on to implement or fake a window title. (Is that correct? It's my impression, so far.) Interestingly, for Chrome, I see this when I mouseover a tab: "The New York Times - Breaking News, World News & Multimedia" followed by the site URL: "nytimes.com" Similarly, for other sites. IOW, the (closest equivalent I can find to a) window title includes lots of info: page title plus the site URL. (I don't see the site URL for Brave or Firefox.)