From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 13:48:34 +0200 Message-ID: <8a7362da-3cc4-221c-7b8a-a9918677adff@gutov.dev> References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40586"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=c3=b6rn_Bidar?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie , =?UTF-8?Q?Gerd_M=c3=b6llmann?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 09 12:49:44 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r13Xb-000AKY-Q5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 12:49:44 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r13Wd-0008Pi-Mw; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 06:48:43 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r13Wb-0008PP-59 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 06:48:41 -0500 Original-Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r13WZ-0007BF-60 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 06:48:40 -0500 Original-Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C2D5C031D; Thu, 9 Nov 2023 06:48:37 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 09 Nov 2023 06:48:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gutov.dev; h=cc :cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t= 1699530517; x=1699616917; bh=5Nm6mECQiBigKIT0Bnzm0AnRGmr1qwtH+p4 YntXW5yk=; b=N12dWmAndEyPVuGfc6EzZp6MPc6EpzV2QMJABTdS8Ql76mBouZI dG2m4Q28vx7pXhLLqiKVOdOePrB+h8KlyqoB48vYPy7nZyaxuCiv2/T91fT74l18 L4aGR1tOsg5qHPhN+d6bV/gFOMP3F06HbGhCHXni6EgaWOjwbTqdk+I7Wqcr4X+o atxnZ4T/0e80OdlqpwI8itgsn2mj4z5dUrW0WoygqVcu6CLhv5zMR3zzVIbWXiE9 OOJ2iYMRCXFoCAb9fs6SjnzyFOz8wuJjNE/wz6vVsZEXg/y+RBz9s0V1nbg1EV8C HS6L/zHLI7jpZc5q2FEj5471GI4hu7PVieg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t= 1699530517; x=1699616917; bh=5Nm6mECQiBigKIT0Bnzm0AnRGmr1qwtH+p4 YntXW5yk=; b=Kf7mh7cy8riHrPSzQSpAT3Nd00LvGH+kx7zb0vMvMfWM24pE/L+ 2G4D5+yLoUTLskKWcTjUC6oy68SOK1SBcz+tSpJocCP2SEe3bKPO3GCK6fK1wEwE 4MiX+VfqOsMg9+NWoVT1VuBveXbkx1IcwZCZXjLkTioaZyrkKgyJj0unxRra2yHM j5seEP8VlrKy9DdfIosZjTMdSRLGCBcFf+e2XeRHKzOb/xQtK/u8vGAgaY28NOzh hfvMlWWxSQ2nEJfB8wcnELyxllTZO6ATsCF4asn2eHtgf6iuoNqvjv5hlPieXuQf 3/hc0qFXmcJvUzHJnFMboJtqFXkzGJuSMPA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedruddvuddgfeduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvvehfhfgjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeffmhhi thhrhicuifhuthhovhcuoegumhhithhrhiesghhuthhovhdruggvvheqnecuggftrfgrth htvghrnhepiefgteevheevveffheeltdeukeeiieekueefgedugfefgefhudelgfefveel vdevnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepug hmihhtrhihsehguhhtohhvrdguvghv X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i0e71465a:Fastmail Original-Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 9 Nov 2023 06:48:35 -0500 (EST) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.25; envelope-from=dmitry@gutov.dev; helo=out1-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -60 X-Spam_score: -6.1 X-Spam_bar: ------ X-Spam_report: (-6.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.277, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312399 Archived-At: On 09/11/2023 12:34, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > As a concrete plan, I would propose the following for discussion: > > We should deprecate those functions/macros/variables in cl-lib that have > no doc string, or a substandard one. This includes "internal" functions, > too. Also to be deprecated are obscure functions/m/v (such as > cl-labels). I'm not sure we can remove cl-labels -- it's useful enough for the cases where it does help, and there are callers inside and outside of Emacs. Whatever other removals, would probably need to be discussed case-by-case. > Having done this, we recode code currently using those deprecated f/m/v. > > (Here a "substandard" doc string is contrasted with an adequate one, > which does all of the following: > (i) It says what the function/macro_does_, or what the variable_is_. > (ii) It describes the form and meaning of each parameter, and its > relationship to (i). > (iii) If the return value is significant, it describes this. > (iv) It describes all effects on the global state, such as where it > writes results to, and suchlike.) Improving cl-lib's documentation would be a welcome effort.