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envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/07/14 10:41:19 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -63 X-Spam_score: -6.4 X-Spam_bar: ------ X-Spam_report: (-6.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:252953 Archived-At: > >> I don't think we can/should make `C-h k` read all of `C-x 4 C-f`, > >> indeed. But maybe we could make the following work: > >> `C-x 4 C-h k C-f`. > > > > Farther & farther from Occam - more & more complex. >=20 > I don't see what's more or less complex about it. It's a new exception. And it breaks `C-x 4 C-h'. And `C-x C-h'? Does that have different behavior from `C-x 4 C-h' now, or does that too get broken the same way? > With other-frame-window `C-x 4` is a (prefix) command. "With `other-frame-window'". Precisely. That's apparently the motivation behind this `C-x 4 C-h' kludge. A solution looking for a problem engenders the need for a solution (introducing exceptions) for a problem it's created. As they say, "Now you've got two problems...". > So just like `C-h k C-u` gives you help about the `C-u` binding, > `C-h k C-x 4` naturally gives you help about the `C-x 4` binding. `C-u' is an exception, not the rule. It's not a prefix key: it's not bound to a keymap. It's bound only to a command. `C-u' - like what you want to do to `C-x 4' - uses `set-transient-map'. You want to make `C-x 4' another such exception, like `C-u', right? Try `C-h k C-x'. What does that do for you? `C-h k' has always waited for (expected) a full key sequence. This is the case in general - menu, mouse, keyboard, whatever. (Not to mention that there are 3rd-party help libraries that let you navigate up, down, and around the keymap hierarchy, treating prefix keys the way they are now. Apparently `C-x 4' will no longer be an ordinary prefix key, i.e., bound to a keymap. So that will likely break such help systems.) > So if you're interested in the `C-f` binding available after you hit > `C-x 4`, it's only natural to use `C-x 4 C-h k C-f` (and not only it's > natural, but it's the only sane option unless we break the `C-h k C-x > 4` case). I disagree that it's "only natural". Natural is as natural does, and it's in the eye of the beholder or practitioner. I'd say it's only natural that `C-h k C-x 4 C-f' does what it does. `C-h k' reads a key sequence and tells you what it's bound to - what it does. > > We already have `C-x 4 C-h', which shows you > > every `C-x 4' key sequence and its command, with > > a link to its doc. Que demande le peuple ? >=20 > You're talking about the current `C-x 4` which is a keymap. > I'm talking about the case when we've change `C-x 4` to be a prefix > command, as provided by other-frame-window. Exactly. I'm questioning that change. I'd like `C-x 4' to continue to be an ordinary prefix key, i.e., bound to a keymap, and not to become something exceptional. That change offer what, that's worth tossing the standard, longstanding behavior? Please answer the questions from the previous mail. We already have `C-h' following a prefix key, to give you info about it. `C-h k' is for info about a complete key sequence. (And we already have 3rd-party libraries that let you explore the keymap hierarchy in detail, and they typically work by handling real prefix keys, bound to real keymaps.)