From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Chad Brown Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why does the tutorial talk about C-n/C-p etc? Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:14:38 -0800 Message-ID: <8DD86AAB-A683-4594-BCD7-D7A0BB38591F@gmail.com> References: <87y49q64eg.fsf@russet.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457810095 14369 80.91.229.3 (12 Mar 2016 19:14:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 19:14:55 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 12 20:14:50 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aeozy-0005qv-00 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 Mar 2016 20:14:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33127 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aeozx-0004Ue-C2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 Mar 2016 14:14:49 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50127) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aeozu-0004UG-9s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Mar 2016 14:14:47 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aeozr-0005hx-3t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Mar 2016 14:14:46 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]:35390) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aeozq-0005hd-SD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Mar 2016 14:14:43 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pa0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id td3so98202025pab.2 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:14:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=d8KSsiPc/n06MNEAM2soAaFSBxgFKQx/JX04oEnVk6k=; b=VyVRuPM7dtvpfuqj9X7v7PmEju/ae60ojj4/8CPJtjNTRTkH3ilTyNVG+ok6DynwH5 G7/MMB3BM9y/OsY4mMlPUA/LtZYXTGrfykmEppM5RznCF11Y1c/ji7087okzN+J+JZJU 1LGud2SM83FFmEgkMRdKPw63/yGX3MM0/mZmQkwQ8jjQkPO6Ry1zKxTCNSONOL4545aV I08wtZGliVZD9NwLXUab6hpc0FLeFNOtN9kaUIfcPrNK3f4w5uUeVppg+MMGnnJM7fSn fuN1B6AW+cqUfhiOqlkA6IhW03V6LqSrQNrkkAzX1f2YcjsLToHWZ0v8cRkaocO58IQu 0Ekw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=d8KSsiPc/n06MNEAM2soAaFSBxgFKQx/JX04oEnVk6k=; b=SwU01VlSveZMcP5INl9tdYXGhyrT7TjKiE9mZSJxRBsgI1510DwnUeSKgjFWV6kB76 zvu3LQy8j4pYMz0uaiUU41BW1H01W4JTTDlsIiU+YydFGGmWgnMABlwgqmrxmKO1Pu8I V09RwBua4iLp3lsG9ndp2zvJ9qnX1UZR70U3K2WzI5ApFiUrW578F1CvOv7alKCk+Y9Q 19CX+8ufga3HJV8psnQga+fnK5cFA1XWqFe1MA7zMlxHW8KQkXWsz6W6lDpB2p7q6TCd Oym73t8hnZ3eMe5guzhdsdds+GpfK5Fu4KWe9WU+4OK4J5YifnM4vuQ8jWHjUS0SMnvo xwdw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJJXat1cNrf7Cn52gB8pm3xwk8JgGm+ijDjrDDT2L+hB4369mmlNkeGOjlbP4DFMIA== X-Received: by 10.67.21.231 with SMTP id hn7mr25598049pad.150.1457810081393; Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:14:41 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [10.0.1.44] (174-21-119-105.tukw.qwest.net. [174.21.119.105]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g70sm21416031pfj.13.2016.03.12.11.14.39 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:14:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201542 Archived-At: There are some extensive UI studies on these topics, and the results are basically (paraphrased from memory): * Using the mouse for nearby positional editing is measurably slower than using 1-key or 2-key keyboard commands, for people used to both. * Using arrow keys in a typical IBM 101 or similar layout is *very slightly* slower than using home-row keys (I believe both WASD and HJKL were compared). * Similarly, using 2-key combinations (like emacs=E2=80=99) is *very slightly* slower than using home-row keys. * Using the mouse for distant positional editing is often faster and rarely slower than using the keyboard. The theory I recall is that tying scrolling to analog physical movements enables people to use the spatial-reckoning hardware in our brains. * Interestingly, emacs has seen a recent flowering of new navigation modes that are largely based on searching rather than positioning (ace-jump, avy, swiper, etc). * For many users, using the mouse for positioning *feels* faster or as fast as using the keyboard, even if it is not (mostly for nearby positioning). * Similarly, many users *feel* like moving their hand to the mouse for any positioning task is slower than using the keyboard, even if it is not (mostly for non-local positioning). * Interestingly, showing users the stopwatch doesn't change the feel factor. * Whether it is worthwhile or not to break what users feel in favor of lower stopwatch numbers depends on your domain. Breaking feel creates an irritation point that slows down both editing and reading/writing, so it's definitely not free. The practical upshot of all of this is that there really is no =E2=80=9Con= e best answer=E2=80=9D for whether to use dedicated keys, key-chords, or = mouse for an editing environment; the answer is still "it depends". It=E2=80=99s been a while since I followed this space, and there=E2=80=99s= probably been some new research since I looked. If memory serves, the sources for these come from a combination of Apple=E2=80=99s/SIGCHI=E2=80=99s = research, Bruce Tognazinni=E2=80=99s work at Apple and Sun, some stuff from the MIT = Media Lab, and the work on Plan 9=E2=80=99s 8=C2=BD, rio, and acme user interfaces. = Much (but not all) of it predates the widespread adoption of advanced scroll wheels and multi-touch scrolling gestures, but those are unlikely to suggest a stronger insistence on emacs's control-key style of positioning. I hope this helps. Apologies if it should have been sent to = emacs-tangents=20 instead. ~Chad