From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: AW: Fwd: CEDET sync Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 02:20:43 +0900 Message-ID: <87zl2qwsgk.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <86bpf7q3fc.wl%lluis@ginnungagap.pc.ac.upc.edu> <87wrxvyijr.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <4B8C42E2.3080308@siege-engine.com> <7697A57B1AD9104F993CDF6A5B69430C09227D1F24@CORPMAIL08.corp.capgemini.com> <878wabxg0x.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87mxyrhxq8.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87635eycga.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87hboyhfnt.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1267550091 10085 80.91.229.12 (2 Mar 2010 17:14:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 17:14:51 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 02 18:14:46 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NmVgD-0001hG-KK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:14:45 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52992 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NmVgC-0002L4-Fx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 12:14:44 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NmVbL-00069b-OG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 12:09:43 -0500 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=46706 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NmVbJ-000684-Mw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 12:09:42 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NmVbJ-00080M-7j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 12:09:41 -0500 Original-Received: from mtps02.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.224]:55205) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NmVbH-0007zh-1Z; Tue, 02 Mar 2010 12:09:39 -0500 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mtps02.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB0208213; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 02:09:36 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A87DE120772; Wed, 3 Mar 2010 02:20:43 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <87hboyhfnt.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.12-devo-585 under 21.5 (beta29) "garbanzo" a03421eb562b XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:121553 Archived-At: David Kastrup writes: > > Not to mention massive internal obstacles to benefitting from > > work done by anybody who doesn't actively pledge allegiance to > > Emacs. :-( > > A copyright assignment is not written out to Emacs, and it is not a > pledge of allegiance, most certainly not to Emacs. The point is that unless people make a point of making code available to Emacs by signing a copyright assignment, it won't get in. This applies not just to XEmacs code, but to AUCTeX (as you know better than anyone), and to many GNU projects as well. I wonder how many thousands of .emacs are out there containing valuable code that will never be part of Emacs? > It may at times be a nuisance for GNU subprojects, but it certainly has > helped in completing the GNU software landscape from isolated programs > to completely free systems. That project was basically finished 15 years ago. The real threats to the GNU system today are (a) patents and (b) lags vs. commercial systems built on free software, even if they are not completely free software. Neither of those can be helped by frictions like resisting a package system for 15 years or DLLs for 15 years plus the foreseeable future, because somebody careless *might* be misled into thinking that a feature loaded into Emacs was therefore free, when it might not be. > The GNU project has been shaped and motivated by political > decisions for the sake of creating a workground compatible with a > certain set of morals and views. That's only part of it. It has also been heavily motivated by the desire to ostracize those with different beliefs, even if they are compatible with freedom. Specifically, the BSDs have shown that it is possible to maintain freedom of the whole for those who want it with important parts of the system (eg, the OS kernel) licensed under less restrictive conditions. It is an open question whether this could be done without a copyleft core; it has never been tried, really (the BSDs started out without, but later made the intelligent decision to adopt a mixed copyleft/ permissive system with GCC and GNU binutils as the core development tools, and today the main desktop suites are also copyleft; of course Emacs is available if not the weapon of choice for true-blue BSDers). Similarly, I have to wonder if Emacs could not benefit from a similar (but more conservative in important ways) strategy by allowing DLLs and relying on legal prosecution to exclude proprietary DLLs. > I am quite annoyed by some decisions and their effects at times. Sure. > But I am not so stupid not to see what long-term effects they have made > possible in the past ultimately. The question is not "did it work well in the past?" The question is, "in the future, do we want to attract the unbelievers to freedom, or do we want to just sit around and congratulate ourselves on our own purity?"