From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Philip K." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 19:48:19 +0100 Message-ID: <87zh2ehpn0.fsf@posteo.net> References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <877dpjp30g.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <87zh2fnmwq.fsf@gnus.org> <87o8ivumn5.fsf@telefonica.net> <87v9d3nkxk.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0tjufkc.fsf@telefonica.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11140"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 15 19:49:02 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpFNc-0002m4-LA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 19:49:00 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47028 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpFNb-0005p5-N2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:48:59 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46354) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpFN4-0005PN-Am for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:48:26 -0500 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:57171) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpFN1-00009b-Uf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:48:26 -0500 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 622FE2400FD for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 19:48:21 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1608058101; bh=rrnzRnp3nQaGC2LLoCtmHzBM+Izus6yDrvgrmKUYdG8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=oVLs+zAZsvPdRpGNZtiZFFmNbXtJ88qkXuBUqqjmt8aNX846u3AxRAe4VA9p8OicF 43Q9assvcy9O0Wl9e8Cnj42ky0cvjsAYLjl4p2pxkeEGFSvasvP70c/P63H7ldVLQ5 9vywoo5iL3m9wMjBlRu+QcAVzApdA9RzPMUo71uWbHhb1O2IwwOQb3s6GssQrxuE3Y X3LKkbUo4IEkbhWJNPua/7prJ9QUzxE0yogfmtqGdCsOz2rR0cjqXaFs7mTF0ilvuK PtPn/lclOJqXoELjZiwzBR+AKD9FxmpzghIMz/fvCmP7pU2vPV9HVb5fd49YBfjvJ6 uktM7uRc7jLGg== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4CwS2D3jCVz6tm5; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 19:48:20 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <87k0tjufkc.fsf@telefonica.net> (=?utf-8?Q?=22=C3=93scar?= Fuentes"'s message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:47:31 +0100") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260901 Archived-At: =C3=93scar Fuentes writes: >>>> and which may well be discouraging people from using Emacs >>>> at all (because it looks useless and out of touch). >>> >>> We have no data to support that. >> >> I did, very carefully, not claim that we do. > > At some point on the past it was decided that having a toolbar was a > good thing. Switching it off just because a very poorly executed survey > barely resembles a democratic vote on its utility, without revisiting > the original motivation, is questionable. > > Really, this kind of decissions should be based on guidance by UI > experts. Sadly, it seems that we have none onboard, same as every other > Free or Open Source projects around (and even most propietary ones). > They are very scarce. Maybe I'm too cynical, but can a non-Emacs UI expert really help with something as other-worldly as Emacs? And I don't even mean this in an elitist way, just that it has so many conventions and usage-patterns from parallel UI traditions, that it might seem easier to just start all over (which I'm not advocating for). > BTW, I disable the toolbar (and the menu) on my config. --=20 Philip K.