From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Current mode command discovery Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 19:21:23 +0100 Message-ID: <87zgzxgu3g.fsf@gnus.org> References: <87v9aubm96.fsf@gnus.org> <87r1laomak.fsf@gnus.org> <87zgzxlgvo.fsf@gnus.org> <83im6lxwnt.fsf@gnu.org> <87blcdjuce.fsf@gnus.org> <83eeh9xsim.fsf@gnu.org> <87czwtiadm.fsf@gnus.org> <835z2lxptd.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36166"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: stefankangas@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 21 19:22:32 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lDtNI-0009Ir-MD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 19:22:32 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35576 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDtNH-0000YS-Om for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:22:31 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44824) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDtMQ-0007OX-8S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:21:38 -0500 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2]:56322) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDtMM-0004Zm-M6; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 13:21:38 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=aLwfOg0DxPMP0Xs5JyOA0W1eRteYPz8F65l5el5Adgs=; b=Q1KVXvRcJ59T31FzFdtljFESX/ I7dJ8/YfZa2imjUi835KNzzGGKkCLygU0u4u2h3OW23Ci2QxbVq1hND8FHypPDTEbWZHZj1b1665U 4ySz+OJy398sEKdRWWUPs5EPhe4xr8lu+wXI7y2V80Az1C1+sebkJyUMgVxOrX/261cY=; Original-Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lDtMD-00032o-5m; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 19:21:31 +0100 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAIVBMVEUoKE8rMm4RERs4 TJpCU5xPZK9zhMH9/f6eqNLU2On///8u7hf8AAAAAWJLR0QKaND0VgAAAAd0SU1FB+UCFRIKOS0S w8AAAAGySURBVDjLrZDvcdswDMUhZwExzAAyu0B5ZCYg+D1XA96AWkH1APV5BGfbAqQkS4n7re9O //DDewAFUNXBXv3y/Aq+NjQN8F/V/wt0DXWPnm7D6tXvV25tnQEjZ+m/zzCdMQZenbBurWut6SCg 147WPAtM745rj4bP3UcjSXNVAnsB1hvpfpGkjaFvDivxZknq5miR/+lUjxHGVmAlRSUvxtdvGzyY EIKX6uDci631xWFD8ta74eCO3vo2xBsP3oaYEqhlEHNFNgQDMQTENmNI8rEIQor44dpW4g1xBQHj rwZ+YLASq+UUJCpmshFfJQoOb4hSxkwEMoGZMbMQ90YVJAwJMEcmpswfbnivdRmKEoVZLFlMbPQu JKHeFfBOKUsuISz9Vc2jUwkK6uRVREgpcyaY/iBtguiEpLsgTNNd7I8o5JOMyCcB0+V2LWU2ZKSo DaRA9TnWyZRzisTvjAsQ35U3262Oy+XzzpvFuc24XbeLreC3vJ55LFyWQ85A489l3P+ZecZ9FD0D 0/067j3rupebxD0DGlfENJYz6y4bUI94bnl7oCYev0c1U3kOBAlR11/41e+AKsLnSwAAACV0RVh0 ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0wMi0yMVQxODoxMDo1NyswMDowMJ6R2KQAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9k aWZ5ADIwMjEtMDItMjFUMTg6MTA6NTcrMDA6MDDvzGAYAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Ryuichi Sakamoto's _Hidari Ude No Yume (2)_: "Tell'em To Me (Instrumental Mix)" In-Reply-To: <835z2lxptd.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 21 Feb 2021 20:01:50 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2; envelope-from=larsi@gnus.org; helo=quimby.gnus.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:265422 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> > "C-h x" is a command we introduced for newbies, and then we proceed >> > confusing them with commands that cannot be shown with "C-h x"? is >> > that reasonable and consistent? >> >> Filtering away `undefined' and `ignore' from completions for newbies >> sounds like a good idea to me: They aren't commands that can be used in >> `M-x'. > > I think filtering out commands such as 'undefined' and 'ignore', that > are really just internal implementation details, is okay. But I > wasn't talking about those, I was talking about digit-argument, which > are full-fledged commands. Yes, I'm really unsure about `digit-argument' (and `negative-argument'). On the one hand, you can't `M-x' them in any meaningful way? (Or can you? I'm not even sure about that.) On the other hand, they are commands that people will see popping up in many contexts, so keeping them in `M-x' completion might make sense from that point of view? I'm kinda leaning towards the latter. Anybody else have an opinion here? > We can invent some database for augmenting the results of mechanically > constructing the list of completion candidates by some criteria such > as key bindings etc. This database could, for example, tell us to > remove 'undefined' and 'ignore' from the list. The database here is constructed here by '(declare (completion ...))'. > Or we may consider these problems as an indication that perhaps the > criteria used for this are not smart enough to produce useful lists > without clutter, and we should rethink. I don't think we've come up against anything yet that seems to indicate that marking commands this way is problematic -- we just have to hash out what our criteria is. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no