From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin_Le_Gouguec?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Tweaking the output of `C-h b' Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2021 12:00:43 +0100 Message-ID: <87zgqojg2s.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87lf29xdkf.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7cxx9bh.fsf@gnus.org> <87zgqpvtky.fsf@gnus.org> <87v91dvt6y.fsf@gnus.org> <87o874vhp2.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0hsvgvv.fsf@gnus.org> <87bl34iosa.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32003"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Po Lu , Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 01 12:02:09 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mhV4q-00087f-Li for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 12:02:08 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60702 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mhV4o-0003wV-LC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 07:02:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43570) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mhV3a-00032X-IZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 07:00:51 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::429]:39789) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mhV3X-00023o-Pm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 07:00:49 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id d27so9588496wrb.6 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 04:00:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=cM1x73Jvvbo2gxJqZTktXs4nGgADMKfEf7dZxRI3aWU=; b=CUsTO0cd1dbXtcpIKb5NiIq/myDVXo+cBvXT+LubZA0kMgq10s4+UebLKQN4y3s4yv 9JvmfvVN/NY6Q0W038MmrkuIDJU+vdCxp1EBcdsp6o4kmRGe4+h7qRlz3tgW93ZQ3vsB XMV74iPushsPuU5/Bt0EJXsLDoTCkQRTLDEPjbSirfrXXVtV4zNHvVACIqRA0MALKj03 I3HTshgT+jJw4vBT4ncu9qhTLMVq2Lda2qH6je6ocRWK0I9SdxB3wfO4nLYFNmINjcp/ GkcRxWRz/avBQN55IKPy87IMIrdZhGCsEkX6iCfsRtCvqaI0/fvFJPU6pogSIwHe2fcm UTnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=cM1x73Jvvbo2gxJqZTktXs4nGgADMKfEf7dZxRI3aWU=; b=5eaC/cCFEiPFaCJMfkuJYwaZ+Y9UY7fGb4b2axoHrQn0V3wDh6qVoeBdNU6sl4iIvI ycLpMn/SfK3MbLK4gSjwIW+8In64uiebl7IulZbCanb5QB5n6lKkjO3vA+hJ19t1z7vR askSBuqaFTaUUwuDopr1/lDjp7s9QGSTRN/ynzo4Y0LXmQOP90LE5/NwTaa2v/2hCJIK YIMarQUAENuWzYIAWLXv+rOa//0N4pm1MtBaEl1uVKrZ6u1j7yIxXIfU8dGikQIfSqeq eI1+JIlQLcWLUc3jZ+/iIgMdQLS8aw7Cyg9ssqwv4E8pcK1IMInUmOpuflJfQ8/CFhEe piwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530/IaDkLcUt40/RUqdvgKOBjP/sNeAW51HOn3fG1zh0Qss3icsu KkMg5RhlkAmIwOHV/lFzsqwGCumsUww= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwYLH+w9dlB4+s8t/12rHJdHfjUFKN918d5tJhB3+R9pPNr8rk/h4ps5dIDanC98eAF4SPjOA== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5986:: with SMTP id n6mr16373515wri.297.1635764444911; Mon, 01 Nov 2021 04:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from amdahl30 ([2a01:e0a:253:fe0:2ef0:5dff:fed2:7b49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f1sm13447864wrc.74.2021.11.01.04.00.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 01 Nov 2021 04:00:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 31 Oct 2021 21:39:12 -0700") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::429; envelope-from=kevin.legouguec@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x429.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:278366 Archived-At: Stefan Kangas writes: > The symbols used in customize are okay, but are far too inconspicuous > even there, I think. Or it might just seem that way because the > customize interface in general is clunkier with regards to navigation -- > for example you don't have "n"/"p" going to the next and previous entry. FWIW I like the SVG symbols in Customize. The orange Noto glyphs are visible alright, but I'm not a fan of tying UI elements to the fontset's emoji font, which varies from system to system, and depends on user customizations. Whatever the consensus ends up being for C-h b, I think there is value in having consistent UI elements for folding across Emacs. Consistency means that when users learn about a UI element in one situation, this knowledge can be instantly applied wherever we made the effort to use the same convention. Right now users have to contend with - ellipses in outline (and derived modes such as Org) and hideshow, - SVG icons in Customize, - whichever characters in outline-minor-mode-buttons their fontset can display, *when* outline-minor-mode-use-buttons is set, - fringe bitmaps in magit-section. Admittedly, none of these UIs is hard to understand individually, and I'm sure it could be argued that each of these situations has specific issues that justify using specific symbols; still, collectively, they make for a rather cacophonic experience IMO.