From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?John_Ankarstr=C3=B6m?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Allowing point to be outside the window? Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2021 14:33:01 +0100 Message-ID: <87zgpbi5ma.fsf@ankarstrom.se> References: <87ilwd7zaq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilwd7zaq.fsf@yahoo.com> <83bl24yaed.fsf@gnu.org> <87sfvg7l51.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r1az6bpy.fsf@yahoo.com> <87ee6nx42p.fsf@ankarstrom.se> <834k7jxo33.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30073"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (berkeley-unix) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:+o0r5By+1k3zpdAVxCAj7vz0FTU= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 08 14:35:18 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mux6M-0007dC-L3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 14:35:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36488 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mux6L-0001Rv-LT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 08:35:17 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49060) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mux4W-0008EL-Sz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 08:33:27 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:45488) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mux4R-0007Ci-5d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 08:33:23 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mux4N-0004ST-WB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 14:33:15 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:281350 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: John Ankarström >> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2021 02:45:02 +0100 >> >> For what it's worth, I think that it would be a good idea to limit this >> feature to mouse-based scrolling. > > The display engine doesn't know what kind of user gestures (or even > Lisp program) caused the scroll, so doing that cleanly won't be easy, > if at all feasible. And Emacs users are likely to dislike a solution > that makes such a distinction, since many of them don't use the mouse. > >> I agree with Alan that, if you primarily use the keyboard for scrolling, >> it is very jarring if editing/movement commands bring the window view >> back to the original position. > > You'd prefer to have the editing command change the buffer in the > portion that stays invisible? IMNSHO, that'd be not just more > jarring, it would be appalling. No. What I meant is this: "Point-detached" scrolling is only useful if there is a way to move the point to the current view. Let's say the point is at the beginning of the buffer. I scroll down to look for a specific definition. I find it in the middle of the buffer. Now, I want to edit that definition. But how do I get the point to the currently viewed position? In (all?) "modern" editors, the only way to do this is by left-clicking. That's why I suggested limiting the whole feature to mouse-based scrolling. If you are scrolling with the mouse, it is natural to click to set a new position for the point. But if you are scrolling with, say, Page Up and Page Down, you would need to move your hand to the mouse to set a new position for the point. This makes the whole feature quite useless for any scrolling that isn't mouse-based. When scrolling with the keyboard, it is annoying if the only way to move the point to the scrolled-to position is by clicking the mouse. The alternative is to provide a keyboard-based way to move the point to the currently viewed portion of the buffer -- like a reverse C-l. Come to think of it, that is probably a better solution than limiting the feature to mouse-based scrolling. I adjust my opinion!