From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [NonGNU ELPA] New package: devil Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 08:45:40 +0000 Message-ID: <87zg6bw91n.fsf@posteo.net> References: <87ttwjbfqq.fsf@gmail.com> <83y1lv5qe9.fsf@gnu.org> <87lehv2wd9.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27994"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Payas Relekar , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Susam Pal Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 11 10:46:37 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1px1wa-00076o-U1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 11 May 2023 10:46:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1px1vw-0007Ub-93; Thu, 11 May 2023 04:45:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1px1vn-0007OW-UM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 11 May 2023 04:45:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1px1vj-00014T-UI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 11 May 2023 04:45:47 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B57F624012B for ; Thu, 11 May 2023 10:45:41 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1683794741; bh=jRTGMQB2SW3qHiToLyDCa0sDYUH7srR5YWT5bgMXrok=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:From; b=e4AmqYyLznIdPmX2D49ShrDFctC+25nLGVVJco4n3OSJDIe03xCUIQ4kGRXIPFn/D NA5kc4PWdiD86sdd3Ixm0zdN/YkyLhzG1srHDBvklRG8GY6upKyN4ngC3CRkzZGxMz GdlH90Gh+vSBbt//X9+9+/wj9fR6KKr5NAlthCJ8C8dlo0wLCDBxuSjHrxxfjU49RI 2NQwKwHW0avrOYuBODOYDElRKKfUojCdty3oxqlMervf9Ydpep918/fddquC3JQhxe 952jH2c9vK7uFAdatnqNc+OhdbZOv7arddwK6hsdDOq+BNOWktzYcdnSiLh5XemF9d faqPsOvJgn5ig== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4QH5850Tmhz9rxH; Thu, 11 May 2023 10:45:40 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Susam Pal's message of "Thu, 11 May 2023 09:09:34 +0100") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:306045 Archived-At: Susam Pal writes: > Philip Kaludercic wrote: >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> >> From: Payas Relekar >> >> Cc: Philip Kaludercic , susam.pal@gmail.com, >> >> emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 10:53:15 +0530 >> >> >> >> Richard Stallman writes: >> >> >> >> > Why use the name "Devil" for this? It doesn't seen to explain anything >> >> > about the package's purpose. It is likely to put some people off. >> >> >> >> Every name is going to put someone or another off, can't really help it. >> >> OpenBSD has their daemon and there are already funny anecdotes about it, >> >> but it doesn't hurt anyone. >> >> Also, "daemon" is not just an OpenBSD thing. >> >> > "daemon" is a term whose meaning in computing context is widely >> > accepted for many years. "Devil' isn't. >> >> I agree. >> >> >> > If there is no clear reason why "Devil" is a good name, let's choose >> >> > a better name now. >> >> >> >> As mentioned by Susam in previous mail, as well as the repo README, the >> >> name refers both to 'eVil' (extensible Vi Layer) as well as 'God-mode'. >> > >> > People are extremely unlikely to understand that, even if they know >> > about Evil in Emacs. And even if they do figure out this is related >> > to Evil, the truth is that the package is not meant to be used by >> > users of Evil. >> >> I think it is more likely than you assume if you ask enthusiasts, but if >> we consider the average user who doesn't hang around in Emacs-related >> forums, chats, etc. then this is very true. >> >> >> The name is distinct, and I like it for what it is. >> > >> > Please reconsider, I think this name is very unfortunate, because it >> > gives users no clue whatsoever about the package's purpose. >> >> Susam, what do you say? Do you have any ideas? A few names I can think >> of might be: >> >> - no-modifier-mode >> - prefixless-mode >> - implicit-ctrl-mode >> - comma->control-mode >> >> but I'm not really convinced by any of these (haven't really used the >> package yet either). Perhaps this might inspire someone else to come up >> with a better suggestion? > > Although the default translation rules in Devil translates comma to > ctrl, m to meta, etc., Devil is very configurable and one is free to > configure Devil in other ways that may or may not involve the comma > key or the modifier keys. Right, that was why I said I wasn't convinced by the suggestions with "comma" in the name. By the way, you should add a custom setter to the user option that configures the key to update the minor-mode map to rebind the key. > For example, I am aware that there are users of Devil who use the > semicolon as the Devil activation key and translate semicolon to > control. There are also users who only translate some activation key > to control key but regular alt modifier key on their keyboard for the > meta modifier. > >> If you really insist, then I think we really have to come up with a >> better description, because "Minor mode for Devil-like command entering" >> is really confusing. >> >> > Thanks. > > While I understand the desire for a more descriptive name, I believe > that "Devil" is a suitable choice due to its humorous reference to > both God mode and Evil mode. Some people like the name. Some do not. I > like this name. If you insist, I guess we'll go with that (unless anyone wants to veto it), but I think it is sad to contribute to the further spread of confusing and opaque names for packages that has been increasing on GNU and NonGNU ELPA recently. > If it is essential for the package's name to reflect its purpose, I > propose "Devil" to stand for "Devil's Extremely Versatile Interception > Layer". I think you know that that is not what is being talked about here. Retroactive acronyms are usually just a joke, and don't help address the issue that newcomers face when they are given packages names like "Corfu", "Captain", "Luwak" or "Eglot". They are not indicative of their functionality and at best have vague links to other terminology that you can make sense of if someone explains it to you (sort of like the devil to evil/god mode in your case), but most non-enthusiasts wouldn't see. While I get the intended pun, and I think "devil-mode" is a clever idea knowing the context, I would still like to urge you to reconsider -- not for your own sake but for that of the users. > I agree that the current description of the package needs improvement. > I have now updated it to "Minor mode for intercepting and translating > key sequences." That probably as good as it gets for a brief description. > Regards, > Susam