From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philipp Haselwarter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changing the default for `send-mail-function' Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:42:24 +0200 Message-ID: <87y60o3e0v.fsf@nzebook.haselwarter.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1309095925 23880 80.91.229.12 (26 Jun 2011 13:45:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 13:45:25 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 26 15:45:19 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QapeJ-0000qx-5u for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:45:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40072 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QapeH-0002Co-Ry for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:45:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53303) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qapbn-0001oZ-TB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:42:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qapbj-0007K5-B6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:42:43 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:35306) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qapbi-0007Jv-NV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:42:39 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qapbh-0008Hi-Ja for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:42:37 +0200 Original-Received: from 55.93.114.78.rev.sfr.net ([78.114.93.55]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:42:37 +0200 Original-Received: from philipp.haselwarter by 55.93.114.78.rev.sfr.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 15:42:37 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 73 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 55.93.114.78.rev.sfr.net X-NSA-Fodder: Abbas Zachawi electronic surveillance Kosovo quarter X-Meat: Haggis User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:VckhBcUJqk3xqTNU1UDcPekXNgY= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:140990 Archived-At: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >> Emacs until now didn't require the user to provide the server address. >> At least on Windows, the system mailer (Outlook or whatever) is >> normally already configured, and many times by a person other than the >> one who invoked Emacs. The latter might not know the address or the >> credentials, or both. We don't want that to get in the way of an >> Emacs user who wants to report a bug, for example. > > It's the same situation on Linux, really. Today, if you want to send > email on Linux, you will have configured exim to do the right thing. > (Or it will be configured by somebody else for you.) > > So the situation is the same on Linux and Windows: People today > necessarily have configured their mail setup, or had it configured for > them. > fwiw, most people I know just use the web interface (gmail, their uni…) > The problem that switching the default from `sendmail-send-it' (on > Linux) and `mailclient-send-it' (on Windows) is to make Emacs work as a > mail client out of the box. > > If you install Ubuntu on a new machine, it will install exim, but leave > exim in local delivery mode only by default. If you then send email > from your brand new fresly installed Emacs, it will fail silently. It > will call `sendmail-send-it', and exim will take it, and deliver a > bounce locally. Which probably won't be seen by the user. > > I think that's pretty unacceptable behaviour. > Very much. And most people won't bother to interrogate how to make it work if it fails them the first time. > On a freshly installed Windows, the situation is similar, but at least > it won't fail silently. `mailclient-send-it' will send the message, > which will then open Outlook (or something), which then won't be able to > send the message. But at least it'll tell you so. I still think it's > pretty yucky mail behaviour, and one that no other common mail clients > will emulate. > > Defaulting to `smtpmail-send-it' will make Emacs behave exactly like all > other mail clients: It'll ask you for the outgoing server name. If you > give it the wrong name, or you don't know it, you will get a proper > error message saying what the problem is exactly. > > While this default change will annoy 95% of the current users (since > they have to type the SMTP server name once (and possible credentials if > the SMTP server requires them)), it'll make Emacs mail work for new > users reliably. > > However, I think there's a third possibility here, beyond keeping the > current defaults and "hard-swapping" them. :-) > > What about if we default to `query-user', and then the first time you > use it, it'll ask "Use the built-in SMTP support, or use {the Windows > mailer,exim} to send the mail?", and then save the response. > > (It probably needs to top up a help buffer explaining the choices in > more detail, though.) This sounds like the right thing to do, leaving the decision between a emacs built-in mailer and an external one to the user. I guess offering to query the Mozilla database and/or suggesting smtp.example.com for a user@example.com address with a few hints on how to find the right server would be seen as convenient by most. -- Philipp Haselwarter