From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Lisp's future Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 19:06:11 +0900 Message-ID: <87y4sjm0do.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87d2ahm3nw.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <871tqneyvl.fsf@netris.org> <87zjd9swfj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87oatnqpml.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <874mvdrj45.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20141009044917.GA19957@fencepost.gnu.org> <83lhopisfr.fsf@gnu.org> <87ppe1pldu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8761ft5wpo.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83k349b0vj.fsf@gnu.org> <83bnph96kh.fsf@gnu.org> <87ppdwo7ll.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <543BE7CB.9040801@cs.ucla.edu> <87egubopls.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87bnpfyjaf.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87a94zoo57.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83h9z77p7d.fsf@gnu.org> <8761fnnne9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <831tqb6qt7.fsf@gnu.org> <83y4sj5bhl.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1413281208 19134 80.91.229.3 (14 Oct 2014 10:06:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:06:48 +0000 (UTC) Cc: dak@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 14 12:06:42 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xdz06-0006rb-3b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 14 Oct 2014 12:06:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37477 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xdz05-0002P7-HZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 14 Oct 2014 06:06:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54837) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xdyzx-0002OS-GQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Oct 2014 06:06:39 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xdyzr-0001j1-K5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Oct 2014 06:06:33 -0400 Original-Received: from shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.161]:59997) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xdyzf-0001fW-2L; Tue, 14 Oct 2014 06:06:15 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3B61C39EF; Tue, 14 Oct 2014 19:06:11 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8F36C1A2888; Tue, 14 Oct 2014 19:06:11 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <83y4sj5bhl.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" acf1c26e3019 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.161 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:175347 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Here's the discussion I had in mind: >=20 > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2013-03/msg00420.html Oh, that's rich: The same can be said for etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL.ja. This file should be shown in a proper Japanese font even for a user not in Japanese lang. env. With all due respect, Dr. Handa, that is quite ironic. You know as well as I do what every Japanese textbook does to Chinese poetry. Technically speaking, this kind of font choice is better done with metadata. For example, the user's default fonts might not make a clear distinction among the different styles, or might be very unrepresentative of one or more languages' typical style. The fact that Emacs *can* do it based on character set is kinda silly nowadays because *nobody else* does. The effort would be better spent on improving CSS support. And this again is amusing: CJK variety: GB(=E5=85=83=E6=B0=94,=E5=BC=80=E5=8F=91), BIG5(=E5=85=83=E6= =B0=A3,=E9=96=8B=E7=99=BC), JIS(=E5=85=83=E6=B0=97,=E9=96=8B=E7=99=BA), KSC= (=E5=85=83=E6=B0=A3,=E9=96=8B=E7=99=BC) I know[1] that there are consistent font style differences between each pair of coding systems above, and those are nice to have. But what is funny is that *mostly those are not glyph differences in the same character across languages, those are different characters in Unicode!* (Those are not 4 characters represented in 4 different coding systems: there are at least 8 different characters involved. And all but 2 of them are in fact representable in that venerable subset of the Japanese standard, JIS X 0208.) So, yes, I suppose that there are minor technical issues (I note that TUTORIAL.ja didn't round-trip -- which is odd, and "CJK variety" obviously can't). But the assertions that these files "shouldn't" converted to UTF-8 because the differences "cannot" be represented in UTF-8 are primarily artistic, and a point of view with which many users differ. (Besides the practice of the Japanese Ministry of Education, Culture, etc, mentioned above, my Chinese students often prefer to use Chinese fonts for their Japanese papers because they are "more readable", for example -- of course, they need to fix that when they hand them in to Japanese professors, who find the Chinese fonts "unreadable" -- and so it goes.) Footnotes:=20 [1] I'm working in a TTY so I can't see them at the moment.