From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Obscure error/warning/information message from git pull Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:16:34 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87y4rbjf31.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <20141114120604.GA3859@acm.acm> <87389mkjwo.fsf@thinkpad-t440p.tsdh.org> <20141114141434.GM3565@embecosm.com> <20141114180521.GA3168@acm.acm> <20141114230235.GF3168@acm.acm> <87r3x3mg5t.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <838ujbdup2.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1416154645 7994 80.91.229.3 (16 Nov 2014 16:17:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 16:17:25 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 16 17:17:18 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq2Vm-00026S-WC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:17:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44274 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq2Vm-0001EE-It for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:17:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49715) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq2VU-0001E3-9e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:17:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq2VO-0002BB-By for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:16:56 -0500 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:53259) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq2VO-0002B7-5Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 11:16:50 -0500 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xq2VM-0001wC-1E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:16:48 +0100 Original-Received: from x2f48039.dyn.telefonica.de ([2.244.128.57]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:16:48 +0100 Original-Received: from dak by x2f48039.dyn.telefonica.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 17:16:48 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 36 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: x2f48039.dyn.telefonica.de X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:i8kk0HvLBRVt+z6JD8Pu7xk7ZSE= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:177316 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > You are in fact saying that it is impossible for a Git newbie to grasp > the basic concepts and do any useful work without a detailed > understanding of the internals. I don't think it's true. Git has been designed and built from the internals up. A number of commands in daily use are what the Git authors call "plumbing". There are some mostly end-user oriented programs characterized as "porcelaine" but they don't form a complete and coherent set. The initial understanding was that actual version control applications for "end users" would be designed with Git as an engine. There have been a few experiments for creating different workflows on top of Git like "quilt" and "stgit" but while they have a bit of a user base, none of those is actually used to any significant degree when compared to just Git. It's not that different from Emacs itself where a lot of defaults and options and commands are "user-friendly" but, in contrast to other "user-friendly" editors, when trying to solve real-world tasks on your own you are likely going to run into complexity and Elisp leaking in your face. So it's not all that rare when demonstrating the user friendliness of Emacs, there are the occasional 10 seconds where you have to ask your audience to look away for a moment. Git workflows with the default commands are rather close to the "plumbing" and need to refer to it at times. As a result, it's fairly easy to run into "look away for a minute" territory. So "I don't want to learn about internals" may be even less successful in the long run than "I don't want to learn about Elisp" is with Emacs, and there is less of a tradition with Git over Emacs of having others around who have built turnkey applications for your workflows. -- David Kastrup