From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:01:18 +0100 Message-ID: <87y4qfj2u9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <2815659.zRQ0WWWeRr@descartes> <20141205175810.GD3120@thyrsus.com> <87lhmlncb1.fsf@earlgrey.lan> <20141205193643.GB5067@thyrsus.com> <87tx19rd1b.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <20141205215138.GF7784@thyrsus.com> <54823617.4000406@cs.ucla.edu> <83k325195l.fsf@gnu.org> <5482D94B.2070102@cs.ucla.edu> <5484FF31.5010808@cs.ucla.edu> <5485FC59.5030700@cs.ucla.edu> <87388p6glt.fsf@engster.org> <871to9lw6g.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <5486A704.6090305@cs.ucla.edu> <87k321jj4e.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <54876F7F.9000607@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1418202577 19659 80.91.229.3 (10 Dec 2014 09:09:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:09:37 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 10 10:09:28 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XydGx-000087-Ni for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:09:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44066 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XydGw-00034W-W7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 04:09:27 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47164) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XydGt-00034R-7u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 04:09:24 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XydGs-0003jR-4C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 04:09:23 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:53239) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XydGs-0003jM-1S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 04:09:22 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60410 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XydGr-00072B-0y; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 04:09:21 -0500 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CCAEEE08F6; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:01:18 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <54876F7F.9000607@cs.ucla.edu> (Paul Eggert's message of "Tue, 09 Dec 2014 13:54:07 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:179633 Archived-At: Paul Eggert writes: > On 12/09/2014 12:57 AM, David Kastrup wrote: >> >>> I do it all the time when I'm editing manuals, because I want to check >>> the output. >> But that's one manual then, not all the manuals. > > Sometimes it's just one Emacs manual, but often enough I'm editing > multiple manuals. Plus, even if it's just one manual, Texinfo 5 is > still waayyy toooo sloooowww. > >> Make doc for LilyPond takes over an hour. > > That's too bad. It shouldn't take an hour to check out one's changes > to the documentation. That's a sure way to discourage contributions > to the documentation. Not really. For one thing, the normal "make" creates the Info documentation (and no HTML docs at all) without images. That catches at least syntax errors in the text parts, and it's probably half a minute of the overall compile time. It's not much of a help for the translators though since we provide Info only for English. For another, if you create a documentation patch and submit it to our tracker, it is picked up by the compile farms and tested for building properly (including full documentation). And third, the dependencies are done pretty well. If you change one source file, only the corresponding Info/HTML/PDF document gets regenerated, and only changed images (which take the bulk of the time) are recompiled: a system of hashing makes sure that any changes in the image source result in a new file name for the file extracted from the embedded source. Of course, if you change the LilyPond executable and expect changes in the docs because of the changes in the executable responsible for generating the images, you need to run "make doc-clean": an explicit dependency of everything on the executable would be too painful. >> Texinfo is a small project. If one is serious about wanting to >> invest time ("we need to do better" suggests so), it is likely spent >> quite effectively there. > > Only if we assume that Texinfo is the way to go for the future. If > not, our time is spent more effectively elsewhere. It's under control of the GNU project and it does the job. We are free to spend time in it. For projects external to GNU, we may or may not even have the possibility to spend time/effort for making them better suited for GNU. -- David Kastrup