From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2018 19:40:48 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> References: <87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87k1oeaofu.fsf@ada> <20180825103413.gbm5stsl67j6weow@Ergus> <87k1od7vzf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83wosd5h3x.fsf@gnu.org> <871sakzssu.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83bm9n6f7d.fsf@gnu.org> <87tvneql3i.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83o9dl2oob.fsf@gnu.org> <87y3coopyf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <5261e02f-fd51-7e8d-fb6b-ad013ce2e748@lanl.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535824304 24282 195.159.176.226 (1 Sep 2018 17:51:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 17:51:44 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , radon.neon@gmail.com, flexibeast@gmail.com, spacibba@aol.com, Emacs development discussions To: Davis Herring Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 01 19:51:39 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwA3f-0006BZ-GQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 19:51:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38000 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwA5l-00084s-JB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 13:53:49 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56125) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwA4O-0007GO-M1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 13:52:25 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fw9uK-0001sD-H3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 13:42:01 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5301::4]:34124) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fw9uH-0001oo-L0; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 13:41:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1535823715; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=Sender:References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=Kjm7BCP9BIcLDSQvcqXiKegfQSERyTYfpPSFU4ujdGw=; b=QWP/X0ghKtjuqI97pk0jxluHDS0Sa58TwuPiRqhxT5RzIUalJEWngVx8Wo62vCJE6d x49mOjXdg4dj0n6Jc1W/bM3LE2ZJ9GgClfaTm8ztaUpH3G8qUss+P615rxj0l/49d3rs +9fguvmw+1ET4eArLR5RTp6NSC/kyggYDFemGn3YIcIZaT19fKiSdmXSmXst+WjCFytG 9QssKQVANjtVqBO90XIRGE5ujsXgt09Iu5mgdvsslRLz7b1mDehIIriWpZ0DMweem8rV Kx5xCTkkg+pytxiYtualj+zrx+sZXawYmPjVGX6usUjigmArADSLjugQh3+/GhP7Nrsw /kNA== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 43.21 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id j020b1u81HfoESO (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Sat, 1 Sep 2018 19:41:50 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from lee by himinbjorg.adminart.net with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fw9u9-0001la-Pr; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 19:41:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <5261e02f-fd51-7e8d-fb6b-ad013ce2e748@lanl.gov> (Davis Herring's message of "Wed, 29 Aug 2018 20:12:45 -0600") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5301::4 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229165 Archived-At: Davis Herring writes: >>>> And I don't remember how to get back when following links in info >>>> documentation >>> >>> You can type 'l' (for "last"), or use the left arrow button on the >>> tool bar, or click on "Info" in the menu bar and select "Back in >>> History", or click on Info->History and select any node you visited at >>> random. >> >> Ah! I remembered something about arrows and tried to use the cursor >> keys --- how about making it so that you can go back and forth in info >> with Alt+ like you can do in web browsers? > > There is the usual issue of Emacs' traditional keybindings clashing > with those from other (usually newer) domains: Alt generally meaning > Meta, M-left/M-right are already used for backward-/forward-word. Meta seems to be ESC. Alt doesn't do anything like what ESC does, and I inevitably have two entirely different Alt keys because I'm using a German keyboard. Some key combinations that require some combination of Meta and Control do not work at all. Who would ever press ESC-right or ESC-left to move a word? Hm, ok, I tried Alt, and it now does work, at least in an X frame. Only the Alt key is on the wrong side of the keyboard, as is ESC, to be useful for moving. Since when does Alt work the same as ESC? > Of course, we also have M-b/M-f for those, but the point is that such > changes do not come without cost. You are free to argue something > along the lines of "For the future userbase of Emacs, consistency with > the rest of the world is important enough to change X.", but that's > quite a bit different from "how about...?". The issue in this case is not traditional key bindings vs. more recently invented ones. The issue is that I very rarely use info and thus do not remember its key bindings. Does the help page I got stuck in say anywhere how to get back? Why shouldn't Emacs adjust to changes and adopt new key bindings so it becomes easier to use? >> I have menu and toolbar disabled ... > > Complaining about navigability and discoverability of an interface > while having disabled its most discoverable features meant to guide > new users is a strange combination. I'm pointing out a usability issue and you call it complaining. That must be the right attitude. Fine, I'll give vim a try. PS: I tried vim in the meantime, and I'll probably switch. >> Basically, I want to use the Emacs server the usual way how you use any >> server, like a web server or an ssh server or an XMPP server. > > Or an X server, which is attached to the hardware that faces the user? > There's more than one way to think of the word. I don't want it to use like an X server, and there are always many ways to think of all words.