From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin_Le_Gouguec?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 23:54:57 +0200 Message-ID: <87y2qhnc9a.fsf@gmail.com> References: <20200426172206.GC18629@ACM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="2163"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Stefan Kangas , Emacs developers To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 27 00:02:34 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jSpM9-0000Tg-Pl for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 00:02:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47420 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSpM8-0007j2-RC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 18:02:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36718) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSpEx-0002h5-4b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 17:55:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSpEs-0005UO-P3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 17:55:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x336.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::336]:38176) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSpEs-0005TZ-A9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 17:55:02 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x336.google.com with SMTP id g12so18176670wmh.3 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 14:55:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eHFyoHXAHB0HU6O2PJg54nz2/aAa6eLub6O8BJxd6UE=; b=AzVKxgehgory0fKHbFr5Rl0wI2jfhTb6g6TDtA2ttPpVFtD41ZNih0Ek+tPGrEIWMF 3tI5gKgUDxu38xDky3Axh63C6XwRizVHl9tM820gjw2d9gLwctJENpbxn5umZ1fk6wUF vQx4rjLCirzC9rvoQ1rYN8B0B6nXQUxh9T+xY5Jp4OFsNDNny8aQ5lsCQGI6N3Yy56dW quHGsyAZwQq9q6u7CtL2HE2PWgOCURH+IaTdSTRn5IZMeAWhp4goc4x0/EkAegxca7kw F8O0XGwkEztq3pZzbiQyW+W00O+7C/cHdK+2v5Bfe75eM0NQrcPFns6qzLT67bKZpGPU aCYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eHFyoHXAHB0HU6O2PJg54nz2/aAa6eLub6O8BJxd6UE=; b=aTiA/Vckc1GnoQRRRik4sFlw8q3fJInBn0uiTRYLL38nTHalGVuh9yU8Zz+p3NZb1u mpXRdzrSemjsej/1Y+YfBfp85DF0n6u5dvVEWPmyl8A1kXBvOHuAWwxM6RfNzx3AJRTP rjL4u8ZkWILxXY+yauxOnig2VjfPETqFhHMHGxsfcy9OJHjoS501xOy0bwOuj54kmCTc 0CujuRoW4LBd3UpXvIAxIIyvkdKy34DNRK41sPfFroiKU3MH2IpXNh6ZvFHDTUqtDlZl 98MNsc2OfYyWeN+kYiiEHjNR8tz/0F22RpV2TBQuv1YJuUdTnHpqb8U7ua/JBIe73tEH STXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaGpW6Ycl1F8O0pbePntDRadT+2a7UR5f67kjcTtLp+Lsl7L6Po wEuurDB+Ul4A8DB7FdHu/jQkb4QgDq/KdA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJGj8FrTI2rKHUg8AYX1pl4fXXpJwN2j+jzHFCwRfcfI5+jV9Zkdrb0MKBZBAtaV6K2otE8Eg== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:dd8a:: with SMTP id u132mr22042090wmg.87.1587938099058; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 14:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from my-little-tumbleweed (200.143.13.109.rev.sfr.net. [109.13.143.200]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z18sm18013803wrw.41.2020.04.26.14.54.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 26 Apr 2020 14:54:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200426172206.GC18629@ACM> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sun, 26 Apr 2020 17:22:06 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::336; envelope-from=kevin.legouguec@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x336.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::336 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247866 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > org-mode is a sledgehammer and the six outline-mode files are mere nuts. > The org-mode source files are 100 times as big as outline.el. > > You do not have to "know" outline-mode to use it. I certainly don't. > It is merely text-mode adorned with a few non-essential commands for > navigating via the outlines. Anybody who can use Emacs at all can use > outline-mode. > > By contrast, org-mode is a monster. The learning time for org-mode must > be non-trivial. OTOH, - I don't think I will ever manage to remember any of the keybindings for the outline-(show|hide)-=E2=80=A6 functions, which means I will never= be able to use the "selective display" feature advertised in outline-mode's docstring without a cheatsheet. - With org-mode, I can simply TAB my way through a document without figuring out whether what I want to show/hide are entries, subtrees, children, branches, leaves, sublevels, bodies=E2=80=A6 So, while I agree that org-mode is a sledgehammer for e.g. idly browsing NEWS, from a user's point-of-view (at least this user) and to borrow your terms, outline-mode "is a monster" with countless esoteric keybindings; meanwhile, I definitely don't "have to know" org-mode to use it; I just mindlessly hit TAB on the thing I want to show/hide. As I said in the bug report, to me this looks like a good opportunity to provide a friendlier section-cycling command for outline-mode; it boggles my mind that outline-toggle-children isn't bound by default.