From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8=?= Kayaalp Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:59:02 +0300 Message-ID: <87y2lerlhl.fsf@gkayaalp.com> References: <48ed4897-356c-4669-a330-1fdb5d65402b@default> <83lfhhijbl.fsf@gnu.org> <871rj9uz12.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <875z8k4wv8.fsf@posteo.net> <83pn6shjni.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911074445.GB5194@tuxteam.de> <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26851"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 28.0.50 Cc: Juri Linkov To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 13 13:22:05 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kHQ55-0006dM-D9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 13:22:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45352 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHPjR-0000xM-7l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 06:59:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36166) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHPiw-0000Vj-5O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 06:59:10 -0400 Original-Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.194]:55795) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHPit-0007ta-V1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 06:59:09 -0400 X-Originating-IP: 31.177.204.112 Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [31.177.204.112]) (Authenticated sender: self@gkayaalp.com) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 26DBB40006; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 10:59:03 +0000 (UTC) In-reply-to: <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> Received-SPF: none client-ip=217.70.183.194; envelope-from=self@gkayaalp.com; helo=relay2-d.mail.gandi.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/13 06:59:04 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255457 Archived-At: On 2020-09-13 13:30 +03, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On a more serious note, what I wanted to point out is that there > are many forces shaping what is currently perceived as "usage > friendly". Some of them stem from ergonomy research (which, of > course, focuses on some population already exposed to software > "out there", so it's part of a feedback loop), some of it stems > from some manufacturer's attempt to differentiate itself, to > grow sales, some of it, even, from a strategy of appealing to > potential decision takers (who are /not/ those who have to use > the sofware later). A lot of that research is pseudo scientific. E.g. some famous =E2=80=98principles=E2=80=99 of UX design are based on academesified opitio= n or misappropriation of unrelated research. E.g. see this one [1]. If you read the =E2=80=98scientific=E2=80=99 background to the =E2=80=98laws=E2=80= =99, what you=E2=80=99ll see is that some of those are shaky, and some of those are lesser than that. We should focus on what makes users *stay* with Emacs, and what makes such a stay comfortable. While I see no harm in making the first steps easier---so long as it=E2=80=99s reasonably backwards compatible---, I firm= ly believe that Emacs is a piece of software users should come to with a knowledge of what to expect. That=E2=80=99s not to mean it should be diffi= cult, as some are tending to interpret, but that Emacs constitutes a certain paradigm of computing, and that that=E2=80=99s the main thing it has to off= er. As an example---tho it=E2=80=99s inevitably a single data point---I=E2=80= =99ve never been a user who is unable to figure out how to change the theme or modify something in Emacs. But I=E2=80=99ve only came to stick with it whe= n I uncovered what _actually_ it has to offer, over some keybindings and random customisation. It should also be considered how so many users stick to Emacs despite it=E2=80=99s apparent that they are pretty much aware that many other editors are way easier than Emacs, for some measure of easy, and yet they stick to Emacs, despite the unfamiliarity, despite the supposed difficulty. We=E2=80=99re asking "why people aren=E2=80=99t coming to Emacs in hordes" = too much, when "why are people using Emacs in the first place" is the more important one. [1] https://lawsofux.com/ -- =C4=B0. G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp / @cadadr / pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427