From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: scratch/command 064f146 1/2: Change command to interactive ... modes Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:30:10 +0100 Message-ID: <87y2fm1ohp.fsf@gnus.org> References: <20210213141225.11309.86562@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <83y2fq9f0v.fsf@gnu.org> <87k0r8xl7y.fsf@gnus.org> <834kic9g0a.fsf@gnu.org> <8735xwvusc.fsf@gnus.org> <83v9as7xns.fsf@gnu.org> <87pn10ueld.fsf@gnus.org> <83r1lf9apm.fsf@gnu.org> <87a6s3vrnd.fsf@gnus.org> <83o8gj9a8o.fsf@gnu.org> <871rdfvq86.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7mb98g8.fsf@gnu.org> <87o8gjuaez.fsf@gnus.org> <83ft1v97bk.fsf@gnu.org> <877dn7u7wq.fsf@gnus.org> <835z2r94zw.fsf@gnu.org> <831rdf91r1.fsf@gnu.org> <87ft1vsmf5.fsf@gnus.org> <83v9aq7m9a.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4595"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, dgutov@yandex.ru To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 17 20:33:37 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lCSZr-00014d-Nd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:33:35 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59760 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lCSZq-0007VN-Pd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2021 14:33:34 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48274) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lCSWj-0005tn-Jr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2021 14:30:21 -0500 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2]:57276) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lCSWf-0000wt-VB; Wed, 17 Feb 2021 14:30:21 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6uMopoQ6TRwCImAmpBbUKfXzeZlWEjPHiVIWatFxLRM=; b=QnOm0Y/qflr8YbOU8cJmgt2n/h fsJHVLtLs1QPIONynGlgLlSduCXozayL5ORDH+U4/aNOVtW43XXeMNd4+qmDVMCYjkhq2IN9bAG3J KHi0DHJl7gn2JrnsJgaiXuhDI79s9dsOUPH9bgU88Rj/gPYSVF8NslLL6daPNMSldn7s=; Original-Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lCSWa-0003VI-3c; Wed, 17 Feb 2021 20:30:14 +0100 Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEXx15zVuIVaTT0t JSSljmH///+bz9z6AAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+UCERMSOFaulm8AAAG2SURBVDjLZZRr ssMgCIWh4wI04wJacAVmA+p1/2u6PDRJp/5opvnkAAdaAECqJKfMsT7fAHAARAhE+m4zbtiygAZ4 riNcHw1jtogLzDnZQEMBkoT9faU5DEB0qdcKqEwqVRNAsIgLkD86rBwvu62AHWDPrx1R/rQqD5GI kDeovEszKcxb6nk0R34m3+eDzaXCb8Q32Gk6xpS1waBv6uT6E6E91HGFNM8RTaoWs4kXwA2Yinfn JiYIW+ocLIbQSQa2lFzW3HSBnbzIS+JadfYO0EH/KyJkK1HvqgToDgyuhVZVsADmQmWccplZQ5qb KFty1FMBy2x1WO/tLh42VpqawwB4RLCmT5EbpHP/QDq8jwVmGdbIB/qqyketUkWvvCEFl6ItReRe teWVfdUGT+Lb3bSAjYn0Ke6GfoNzr52ClNz2C5iLOg/0md9AOjF30efhG826pLISsgwxX1X5qgsg AV2r6is5uRZPXgCe5QoYYsme4GPTSQr5YH8CXsA28TdiVHUX0g/gL/D8DXwB8jOK/APMUTqgg4Ri WoR1sMcNQN1Ms+tnlh0rBvRqmlmmXRPNaZpRLvwDoneZIifNEVQAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRl ADIwMjEtMDItMTdUMTk6MTg6NTYrMDA6MDD2rHgBAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTAy LTE3VDE5OjE4OjU2KzAwOjAwh/HAvQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: In Slaughter Natives's _Mort Aux Vaches_: "Awakening Clean Cathedral, Pure Sacred Worms, To Mega Therlon, Death Just Only Death, Skin Sore Eyes" In-Reply-To: <83v9aq7m9a.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2021 17:21:53 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2; envelope-from=larsi@gnus.org; helo=quimby.gnus.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:265058 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> I think that in the long term, taking care to not make simple things >> like making a command for a mode too arduous, is important. > > I don't think using 'declare' or a plist can be characterized as > "arduous". I think it is. We'd be demanding that people learn about obscure things like `declare' just to write a little mode. That's not good language design. >> And again, I don't see what makes extending `interactive' so special >> here. We introduce new things in Emacs Lisp all the time when we think >> that that improves the language. > > It's not the extension per se, it's the fact that it causes > difficulties, as mentioned in this thread. they may be small > difficulties, but the alternatives avoid them completely, and aren't > more complex. I think using one of the alternatives will leave more > developers happy, and that in itself is a significant advantage, IMO. The difficulties are minuscule. If somebody wants to write code that backwards-compatible, then use the compat library or use `declare'. I don't see why that should stop us from making the Emacs Lisp language better, and use the best language construction in our in-tree code. Doing otherwise makes no sense. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no