From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On the adoption of transient.el Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 11:22:21 +0000 Message-ID: <87y29hihea.fsf@posteo.net> References: <877di4on3d.fsf@posteo.net> <87im1oy6mw.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29588"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Gabriel , Yuri Khan , Emacs developers To: Rudolf =?utf-8?Q?Adamkovi=C4=8D?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 04 13:23:48 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mBEzz-0007Tn-Cb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 13:23:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45264 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mBEzy-0003x4-2p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 07:23:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49150) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mBEyj-0003CU-Cy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 07:22:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:34343) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mBEyh-00058P-0E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 07:22:29 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1A8724002A for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 13:22:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1628076143; bh=+pT4mU6EReEwffc3Y9+06dty/hIZzOAii0AE/loR1mk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=drX8G8MLkOLW+Nrrca5DMkF4nvHUhxeGgEELtRe/R8qhFIjC/05nc7j7iuH4lC8Kb 4gAsIbtOKWOehqcSGWU028xlUnoOUs+YETTZKvvPUsIdbsCXa2FMIFbDLcp4V/mtyP HUxw56A8yc/BBHlQkr17V4fUjMAXexxjUvTxepshcunakwL36qg0/bODvahq5a8yvI LJuUVyvxGgcO78kXAViOQf05JAe4G+zc9pR0k+p2CDxqrStmxFWne6S2kv9ytj3C3k wVW66l0ZDVWmLDdBVAllFol6vR3+E+ifpj5ysO8CpxHldi6lS3rOEaC7QX3V4IfZbP ZCbC5t3NfZ2Cg== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4Gfq8Z1pp9z6tmG; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 13:22:22 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: ("Rudolf =?utf-8?Q?Adamkovi=C4=8D=22'?= =?utf-8?Q?s?= message of "Sun, 01 Aug 2021 22:19:34 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:272030 Archived-At: Rudolf Adamkovi=C4=8D writes: > Philip Kaludercic writes: > >> On the other hand something has always felt off about transient, in >> the sense that it is breaking some expected behaviour or couldn't >> pin-point yet, but just unconsciously stumble over.=20 > > This is exactly how I feel about the "modern" interfaces in Emacs. I > reported a bug in Embark recently, and because I could not select and > copy the text, I ended up re-typing the text that was right in front > of me in Emacs. Say what? For me, Emacs is a program where I expect to > never waste time re-typing anything. Magit has a similar feel to it, > and I can never be sure if the program will allow me to select text in > the diverse parts of its user interface. In my opinion, such > uncertainty is bad for power users. I would expect this from Apple or > Microsoft software, because their latest =E2=80=9CUX designers=E2=80=9D s= urely know > better than anyone, but in Emacs? I am not sure if this is something specific to modern interfaces, or rather an overreaching when it comes to binding. After a while I managed to "pin-point" what was irritating me, and it was the missing ability to search (something that I seem to do so passively that i didn't even notice it). Having C-s work is especially useful when there are a lot of transient options. This cannot be solved by binding C-s manually, as just because that might work for me, there is some other behaviour someone else is expecting (eg. your example of selecting and copying text). What I understand transient and certain other packages do is basically override most keys, even those it doesn't use. This is more invasive than special-mode, that just doesn't bind self-insert-command to most keys. What I wonder is why this is done/why it might be necessary. > R+ --=20 Philip Kaludercic