From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gitlab Migration Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 19:47:33 +1000 Message-ID: <87y28nuqkx.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87h7fcnmq0.fsf@posteo.net> <87o89kw0hl.fsf@gnus.org> <0c369b25-aedd-1fdf-4813-503f27e42c7c@yandex.ru> <874kbbznwv.fsf@gmail.com> <8735qvwcqt.fsf@gmail.com> <20210827082508.GC5381@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20750"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.6.5; emacs 27.2.50 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: tomas@tuxteam.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 27 12:33:00 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mJZAS-00059z-3k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 12:33:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54568 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJZAQ-0007sg-9X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:32:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57690) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJZ8o-0006VI-Hr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:31:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x633.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::633]:33651) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJZ8m-0006Hb-GX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:31:18 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x633.google.com with SMTP id m4so3684850pll.0 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 03:31:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=F9CTXxptmoe3LNkFe6nevTT6UfHfsKnHlVPOlGmBWxo=; b=rQkjYzwgrR8Vf/oiHhX5R51jJrMEUsP4ss8DeKkVISXxm/Ha14L43Ly3mHB8wJnA3q V9g8Ra2/m0UmBAbHBKc8n3nIz8pwi/S6QoyhuJFxuz8D6gmLKPPmlFG6vKv6Jc+6i66h gzAUqQzKdkwbX5r005s3X/YMsC5O+9mWnBls/UwG6sMNwzQInHrlcBDf+5T4Amo8Nh8l o8qCZwoRpM5iIB+Bv06kmFqLflgikziu2IBrYxYpXmeT4saLbTmwmGa+HZIduqU97lOD 1Yu4idjMq2yHYwgMvRW+aVRXG6O1cb6enw6UYePdQd730OUFE6RiTP4P7kvY0CfCTgI1 C/4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=F9CTXxptmoe3LNkFe6nevTT6UfHfsKnHlVPOlGmBWxo=; b=szNjuaQYOM/1HKVhZQsaBolPJh5U9Z1zxDae4XU3GpCSyFc329ASpme6qgnUEJrgXE TjwKGZ7T11omrRyc/BfmNmvT/sX7TYYmiym9nNMp3R7mwpnS2Xm4ZV27GGWRwPCb0g/d ZSNTQ5R4xlQBW91ftlX0SOE4xoosjofTokFavsBz/cwzZp4HZujXCbVbC1lxDC0yqvLM 7FVfXVDy5b4euPPjN0nc/7NHlxtqnuGDVyYUpd4xT/kDz8N+lqYt2pHdnMUmMav0ADYX wS7gX8WV8Rk6xjbgLbT0agh52i+rj9U3Z3STg//hgVtA7AGO7Mht/yebGJV9QPDXhwgN n6bw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531lKCBmvfRITN1mlrbtoIvuGRX4mT/vFqEh37/gz2u/9bJLykOr Kg+LJ8SRXbSBA5q0lIctuWAfcvMFp5s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyKkyeD9aEs3gRtvXh3M2B0WhCpQwSTjMbq5aYylDJMFVkjn8KBNNor6AyMOhZb41iC9bxhMA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:e8e:: with SMTP id fv14mr21342005pjb.150.1630060274112; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 03:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-92-233.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.92.233]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y19sm6152647pfr.137.2021.08.27.03.31.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 27 Aug 2021 03:31:13 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <20210827082508.GC5381@tuxteam.de> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::633; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x633.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273141 Archived-At: writes: > [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]] > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 05:34:26PM +1000, Tim Cross wrote: > > [...] > >> Yep, that mirrors what I'm seeing as well. Many younger users really use >> it primarily to provide a unique identifier (login) and for when they >> have to deal with institutions that don't provide other alternatives. > > I think part of the rush is nudge pressure applied by the Big Ones. > It's not possible to monetise mail in the same way as it is possible > to do with whatsapp, tiktok, twitter and the uncountable more or less > "secure" messengers popping up here and there. > > The nice thing about those communications platforms (nice from the > perspective of the venture capitalist) is that there's no separation > of platform and UI, so they get direct control of the user's perception. > > The problem with that argument is that it doesn't explain the behaviour of young adults and teenagers. Nobody has 'nudged' them to move away from email - they were never into it. It simply isn't a communication medium they are interested in. For them, it is about IM, instagram, tiktok etc. Some of it is because of marketing, a lot of it is because of peer influences. Regardless, email is of no interest to them. >> The other interesting trend I'm seeing is with many companies now >> working to minimise email as part of their internal/external workflows. >> Many companies are finding it a huge resource sink, cause of unnecessary >> stress/pressure on staff, source of significant security concerns and a >> real problem for records management. > > I have watched this process around the 2010s in one company. The > decision was made at top level (they were convinced by some Microsoft > salesperson [1] to switch to Office 365 instead of mail, because... > mail is old). Today, they still use mail, but have outsourced their > whole communications infrastructure to Microsoft, GDPR be dammed. > > The resource sink, stress and pressure stemmed rather from that > change, for those who had to use that "new" platform (not to > talk about staff layoffs for the old sysadmins, but I disgress). > > Those having taken the decisions didn't have to use O365, they > have secretaries. For them, it was success. The move to use o365 or google mail was about moving away from maintenance of infrastructure in favour of using 'commodity' services. It is about streamlining management, reducing dependency on in-house technical skills and more predictable and easy to manage budgets. This was particularly true for companies who already used exchange and were paying dearly for the cost (both technical and hardware) to maintain the platform. It was also about the dream of unified communications with Calendaring, VoIP, Video Conferencing, etc. Few companies just ran a simple Postfix or similar mail server - they had calendaring systems, video conferencing/meeting systems, VoIP systems etc., all of which could be replaced by services from MS or Google and they could get rid of those expensive and difficult to recruit skilled technical staff who kept it all running. It was about easier management and predictable budgets (even when it was more expensive). However, this largely pre-dates the drive to move away from email. Email, regardless how it is provided, is a problem for companies. It is a major source of security problem, it is a nightmare for records management, policy and regulation compliance and a major impediment in business workflow automation. While I doubt any company will stop using email completely, they are definitely moving way from having it as a key technology in their business processes. > > This may sound like an off-topic rant, but I'm serious. Not all > of this "mail is old" meme is for real. Some of it is propaganda > (I emphasise: /some/ of it). So we should take each critique > and address it one by one. > The problems with email for business are real. While lots of companies are pushing their alternative solutions for various reasons, it doesn't remove the reality that it fails for business on many levels. Personally, it remains my preferred communication medium, except when I need to communicate with my kids or any of their friends! > To put it in other words: I won't pay a wholesale-ish "mail is > old" argument. I want to have more solid stuff. > Time will tell. I certainly wouldn't be investing in any company that was only an email provider. However, we are getting off topic. I think the key point to note is that I don't think anyone is saying we need to get rid of the email based stuff we currently have - what people are asking for is to have an alternative interface which is similar to what is offered by Github/Gitlab/sourceHut in addition, not instead of. Arguments about one being better than the other are pointless as we all have our own preferences. What people are asking for is support for a broader set of preferences.