From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 15:36:43 +1000 Message-ID: <87y1xtnr08.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87v8szrfz6.fsf@localhost> <83ilozpzce.fsf@gnu.org> <87wnde1rqh.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a6aa2oty.fsf@gnus.org> <87pmj63qs0.fsf@gmail.com> <87h74h79ba.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9232"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.28; emacs 28.1.50 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: tomas@tuxteam.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 19 07:49:38 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o2noX-0002DY-Lw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 07:49:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33424 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o2noW-0000TT-3i for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 01:49:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49066) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o2nmv-0008Bo-Pf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 01:47:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x636.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::636]:40612) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o2nmt-0001qk-2w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 01:47:56 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id k7so7110082plg.7 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2022 22:47:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=Zs32NsDHjAdCDS2eFGgNqAc/l1U0+YIKeQYHbZXG6cE=; b=LzSWm/5qbTNB9o2dbNhf0tVGQsDBukNIKbVz6DtqcwohaGhQhgdrk0MCNxc2VE2H8G 17jn36AW3q7d9tq5sWiGHQzL5mDqTE77sSHQPkBdIIu5zbb9vJO7D78DJJMBZeIwMAb3 DcRDpCEMgKEWwhH4SNRift6O6lEuJL0EH5X+z+BiPQbUNIpPHo4XMgSxMWE2T3msnHaw wNrSWkW3VOCuaGk37ZssqG3FXhFSUteCCcB/wL9Mk3fVqSWAtAV+GwSZ47Tznungv5eo NFZK1TA21hsY6ItX6snCjKVBgEc6meRj9JhKdsiXCpOjpLS9Em5oFIEoTU/pPMEZS97Y O9Hw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=Zs32NsDHjAdCDS2eFGgNqAc/l1U0+YIKeQYHbZXG6cE=; b=bIQQmygqkY8f9S9pgh7BHpzpt91GrJtXlBTgE3UYQjw6BhmYquXleWctP+Cv0r07ZP NxIw8yrcMGV8R8AMWeGJX7/jgRN91RaUY1BDg95m4Q7An20D28MbHwa+j5MGa7Xuvybf wrzVcVHOsN88y6xiEgxR9LKttxmliY+YoAnJSeuFUmV6jyxdL71ModL6FFIgwYvilvlf UVY7bY30mqESKHo2mttLZCXpXGkAg+yxukHWOKIVSvxLSxdJ8V/OZ07NQdcZI6VCgtBl EfFJ6WAnFqZPg65K+VbQcGALgdzFibpR6I6O89WfA9VC5GoYOxCCm+SEVtp1MT/MkSfw areA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora8T1IjMBVg3CUpB4M8Qnrv95KkzPMZzvCRlQuyYtUkDIVj1jP3z tXacZ2HevhXkaotMJofeaTnfIC3XOlA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1uBbOgljkxPirI54YIQXw7LOB0mpG5+gSU4t4r5D04GqcBV0RozMmIp68xwtaLqW0o+YbGGXg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1b4d:b0:1e8:70ea:141d with SMTP id nv13-20020a17090b1b4d00b001e870ea141dmr19521025pjb.146.1655617672759; Sat, 18 Jun 2022 22:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from dingbat (2001-44b8-31f2-bb00-fe04-6766-d064-4e23.static.ipv6.internode.on.net. [2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:fe04:6766:d064:4e23]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j19-20020a62b613000000b00524e2f81727sm3863381pff.74.2022.06.18.22.47.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 18 Jun 2022 22:47:52 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::636; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x636.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:291400 Archived-At: writes: > [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]] > On Sun, Jun 19, 2022 at 10:24:10AM +1000, Tim Cross wrote: >> >> Drew Adams writes: >> >> >> > I find it jarring when people throw in the very verbose org format >> >> > for source blocks. >> >> >> >> How would you delimit a source block? >> > >> > Dunno what OP had in mind, but if, as for >> > the context of my comment, there's no need >> > to delimit it, then, well ... no need to >> > delimit it. >> > >> > Maybe it's a habit. Dunno. >> >> I suspect there are likely a number of contributing factors, including > > [good insights] > >> I still think the worst thing that ever happened to email was moving >> away from plain text and allowing HTML. Unfortunately, HTML has now >> become so ubiquitous in email, people now see plain text as 'old' or >> 'primitive'. There is also the issue that most people tend to use >> proportional fonts these days, so the old days of being able to create OK >> formatted tabular data in plain text are gone - you need HTML now. > > Definitely. > >> As to the verbosity or jarring nature of #+begin_src/#+end_src as >> delimiters - I really just don't notice them. I guess that after years >> of reading config files and using programming languages with too much >> boiler plate code, I've developed the skill to easily ignore such >> trivial constructs. > > But that's the point. To some people, obviously, #+begin_foo is at > least as jarring as HTML markup seems to us (I'm not talking about > sick Microsoft markup, where 3/4 of the file is fonts and CSS, that's > even worse. I'm talking about somewhat "readable" HTML, some renderers > try to do this). > >> Of course, if your using emacs, it is reasonably trivial to make them >> less intrusive with various font locking techniques. If your not using >> Emacs for your email, well I guess that is what happens when you use an >> inferior solutions ;-) If you are using emacs and haven't bothered doing >> anything to reduce the jarring nature, I guess it isn't that bad an itch >> after all. > > I think here we are at the core of the conflict. "Well, duh, use Emacs" > (and implicitly: "use Org mode") is akin to "well, duh, use a browser". > > As fond as I am of Org myself (I admitted in this thread to writing > it by hand without mode support), I think expecting people to follow > suit is bound to create this conflict. > > No, to me, Org markup isn't jarring. But I can perfectly well relate > to this feeling. > > I think, at this point it would be much wiser to take a step back > and think about a solution instead of just repeating "but Org is > better" :-) > > Cheers I think you missed my point. For the record, I was not implying "Just use org". I was suggesting that if your using Emacs, there are numerous things you can do to reduce the 'jarring' nature of org block syntax in email messages (such as using font-lock to alter the appearance and reduce that impact. However, if your not using something as powerful as Emacs to read your email, your likely screwed and if you are, but have done nothing to reduce the visual jarring/offence of org block syntax, then it obviously isn't as common or offensive to motivate you using that powerful editor to change the situation. at no point did I say or imply the only solution was to use org mode. Instead, I was simply pointing out there are some good reasons some people will use it and there are some advantages with Emacs mail readers (such as font-lock source code snippets). The implication is that it isn't going away, so either you have to put up with it or you have to find a way to reduce its impact and Emacs provides a wealth of functionality to do the latter. of course there is also the option to just complain about it, which is easy, but doesn't change a lot.