From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 17:44:40 +0800 Message-ID: <87y1vgeho7.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ilmlluxq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilmlluxq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h725olz1.fsf@gnus.org> <87zgfxn6lt.fsf@gnus.org> <87tu65k9ec.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r119lnsd.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtbxlnf1.fsf@gnus.org> <87czctk890.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a67xlm9v.fsf@gnus.org> <87k070g6l0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8635do4u9b.fsf@gmail.com> <877d30g1az.fsf@yahoo.com> <86y1vg3a31.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28093"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: Lynn Winebarger , Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tim Cross Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 22 11:46:24 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ40l-0007De-QZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 11:46:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57516 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ40k-0004J3-Su for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 05:46:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39382) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ3zL-0002bc-UE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 05:44:55 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic317-34.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.45]:33274) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ3zJ-0005Tc-K0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 05:44:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661161490; bh=joi+wITm+FEiIXZlm0NNzjstNDPzAwyPUmL1/CIXQq8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=LczXPTz9eDKQTPrVqMpsJC612NbLzZ/RVk9KPC4jUIkXFxtf00KBL/5gMQpUvmYvpuceL8hQVfMqdX5Anv1a4yaBZ8mT0eaYbyhHSfrWatx6cuJYgSvTLOC28qqiJLB9iE1oroaDivJhIEwjDSJk3ZqCHdEOdZW23SyAZY/53ow6LaEjk5Yr04g7IUoklYXY/EHgWpGgACjGt+SzB67oYDneKNs31uFbCSjZ7KBB8nCJbryzJWkfXx8zs5SoV5rc/UPoiyzRlDcaAkLhnXlpXYUmi09bKNaYwhsvlvHCGzrNpTlXIKTopIcXfbyJq6vehORcfXE2gFj2gl/3b5WQ8g== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661161490; bh=PfOXNzEGKpo0M6oSVMc63uS4yDnGIe/Z0FLRtYg5LMx=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=KYXHfr6fCzHeiJrEIa0S6W/l0/F64dQOUVQGQWGy3MSdgCZlAeNUxm91EDY4crNesF36YdyIc77UtzmvTvZMgbizQ7mALYaQKOk2puIIfixSO8+1doPDxpBhb8NOnqpVsA6pdNklO4ZbKCWC01AfB5CBBbB1Iq3BF0oLiflWzJZLWxgZ5UI8WHphnvVmNA84TNyHHSZ5APjuNURo9ca/pEPU1BRqEFRwr9L1TUEqalnag0MW5EasmgnYcpAnJhMqQ/6BD5innRagQkusRkOl8rsw9voFnG9ujkARPX0Ilk/dejYJoy16tFpat8C/VexpINVeYcTO41LMqompLGxy/A== X-YMail-OSG: NnL1LWQVM1lWKmuCEVE17Ew2VzddY22hG8cGaaPAEYhcmjFzL27M6.V686wnHQQ vVZ6KoBaOeh33Lrri85j5keiTH0rU.iDgwLv6DBFKn2PYUg_DB0ht0ufOk3gAbe2DNydrMg_mVkI qXmkQuBn9YvC_.8xxJpGMDHV0xrsRsG9DmmH8IKvKRKkkWbawKm8SmaVWLEAcM_zpna1lssH199P Z_k9y1V1x4IRxfB7UptiVyo7BIK.lIPav4JsNC22N6G2p.NdlIx1QiJ.ldqMEpB4COlMSQ2Tyn2y jmJrNC2prdumKtAs2RB40Y.4NY1tRWMJFf55U0jzYnDx56z_T.VQv9iXRqBV5gpvfZ1EGAIHEkmS jX0fr_Fo1tZ9fztImxi629AbDl6hYeMMf1dGyUBCfclOi9yr2McHymwPhc2Qie096w6oGxBpkVvB Q3vfh8qHfenXeIdRAVvQVH8KL0iMYVDLUg95a4WgyxmvU930j8liHWUKwQTc5yD_xLPlyBD1d29L T4CgK1TgWSo1fVXbZh9X3arBt4.RFhwPuCChF8PT3EKbYSckiuu79rwdu0cK7ASJhoTT5TejAT2g ht7h1qkGJO9fu.JN1lKmAvFEJFYvVk2YGhzdWQ3xnQYAihIThbMvEzbQ4AXfcGglJdQJ81MpUmCV G.MzMcd33y2Cb0Slf4dUlaiZy0PT0Z9Jwec2squjGhzDrdM6CtpZAhq_2sFKK5s23Al4vnj0Tcsn _yKXr8mtKtI0nUTmNDFOhqpakhcoVCtzW4g12gVXMtCd4vNikJ1hwfk6iC5.1bott0qEBBtsR6c1 yzPHvVncSxTHbnW54jlHn0mC8.U_64sMU.ddNs6xPV X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic317.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:44:50 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--canary-production-sg3-6f58cd9b5-84qt6 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d22592630f28aa51d47f7f16303c577e; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:44:46 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <86y1vg3a31.fsf@gmail.com> (Tim Cross's message of "Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:32:26 +1000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20560 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.184.45; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic317-34.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293783 Archived-At: Tim Cross writes: > You missed my point. I'm not saying the change is because of a stylistic > issue - I'm saying the change is likely to create a stylistic > issue. This will in turn cause more resistance to the change and > possibly increase motivation to do whatever is necessary to re-enable > gtk build. Reenabling the GTK build will be as easy as specifying "--with-x-toolkit=gtk" at configure-time. It's not being deleted. > Yes, I know that and that is a problem for distributions where they want > to minimise the distro size and number of packages which need to be > maintained. As it stands now, most distributions include 3 packages - > emacs-gtk, emacs-lucid and emacs-nox. As they move to support wayland, > they will either have to include emacs-pgtk or continue with the > wayland-x interface. The risk is, given they need GTK for both emacs-gtk > and emacs-pgtk, they will drop the emacs-lucid package rather than the > emacs-gtk package (unless we help educate them on why that would be a > bad choice). To educate effectively, it helps to understand their > situation and not just address the technical issues seen from a pure > emacs development position. They don't need anything extra for emacs-notoolkit. > OK, so how does my Emacs default theme change between dark and light > theme when I change the theme of my desktop environment? This never use > to work and I assumed it was because emacs didn't respect the DE > theme. I use to manage it via X resources. However, I noticed on recent > installs under both Ubuntu and Fedora that changing between light and > dark themes also resulted in changes to (for example) the menus and > menu-bar from a light background with dark text to a dark background > with light text. My assumption was that this was due to the GTK theme > being respected? The menu bar is not part of Emacs's own interface. > Which is fine for those who know lisp. However, this isn't what people > expect these days. THis was my point - lots of the comments and reviews > for recent distributions of Ubuntu and Fedora have referenced greatly > improved theme/style consistencies. From my own limited experience, this > appears to extend to Emacs as well (to a limited extent, not the whole > UI, just menus, popup dialogue boxes etc. You can use Customize too, if you want. > Ignoring the level of motivation visual appeal/style has to peoples > decisions is likely to be somewhat naive. There are plenty of examples > of superior technology/solutions losing to inferior ones because of > non-technical reasons. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to base our decisions on those non-technical reaspons. > I also wonder about how frequent these crashes and technical issues > are. I switched over from gtk to lucid a little while ago. However, > prior to switching, I experienced absolutely no issues and I cannot > recall the last time Emacs crashed for me. I'm running latest emacs > devel (29.0.50) on Fedora 36 (previously on Ubutnu 22.04). I'm a heavy > Emacs users, running it every day all day and using it for nearly > everything. I switched to lucid because the technical arguments made > sense to me. However, I did not experience any of the technical issues > you reference. If my experience is more common, then your purely > technical argument is going to have difficulty gaining traction. I'm going to say that you're simply lucky. Search for "GTK" on the bug tracker, in etc/PROBLEMS, and on this list, and you will see what I mean very quickly.