From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: master baf1a7a4a0: Turn gv-synthetic-place into a function Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:47:22 +0200 Message-ID: <87y1ub7kjp.fsf@gnus.org> References: <835yhkzmn8.fsf@gnu.org> <878rmfx51p.fsf@web.de> <831qs7zj9e.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8piec78.fsf@web.de> <834jx2xphy.fsf@gnu.org> <878rmenmd4.fsf@web.de> <87sfklgmba.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87edw4bzrp.fsf@web.de> <83y1ucu4k9.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6237"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , michael_heerdegen@web.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 22 13:13:13 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1obK8n-0001OH-Mn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:13:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58384 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1obK8m-0001Bp-In for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 07:13:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55108) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1obJjv-0008Db-Ga for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 06:47:31 -0400 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2]:42896) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1obJju-0002jS-1a; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 06:47:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Koo7ObW8vrgEy4IpVqf+O4IKY9dBBhaRfIzz3RyVbSY=; b=f+Q+r9YzKrXC84OEaLbK8HRAYl CKpBuO2ars7tOfT2TzHgAXZMRPkZO2dktd4rVIikQ3NEvvHchPg8W0SHXHGQ4SGTqoWVqdCUyFfO4 J3cygY7vBrMFylLe/1+EqSgoQEH/HEWesl4Vm068x941KjUcIetVPijpsC4qnS884hXk=; Original-Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1obJjn-0007pq-Fm; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:47:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 21 Sep 2022 12:14:03 -0400") Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEVBR1MTEhVTn+s/ Z52/r6z///8nA0HJAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+YJFgojDiAt570AAAGoSURBVDjLbZOB dYMwDESlmgGs0AFaOwMY3AFc4v1nqk4yAZLCSx74c6eTMMQSM4sIfpGII4kQk+ASIHYQquNYFwo8 b7rWezdAFAg/pspzYvlUwCdFXYgkVpFJQXOFH0wUuehKH16WgREA1BXqFXGtwUyhZgMsEiMz/Kpb wmJqMBEAtGNHwYpoCPYiFq08wWT/+rRYJ9aLg0bdbfgMIqH8L7wUFAMVoLd+AlohOIi9nRQorZHN avpViKGgYwdUDDTZh2IgVNJKdjvtIABo66GiiM6S6ADVZnJvFn9yRaxhgLk/bCLkxQ8Q7g8Z80W1 +QQ2a711miDYQa59kzHADsEOUiplgOkF5GUXABR6gpSRqrCDlA+gbj/oG3FnPHiAlG0iXeLNbi3V apeLS+gjDULJybdLmj+mBEOua01f0UAY6/fsb1yV9j76Y1ckEnm2BzC/g+jbYX0Hvh1uB/ANJ2yS OL8pyED9x8rKb7a6XoB5Gch6HkBrQbKaYD0DssQQvAFI1CvnSw2tDsmG0V5S4ZuiPdYFUNTPZ0uZ 1pc+sH+19kNeAOHEmr/tP8Z4f61SELGbAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIyLTA5LTIyVDEw OjM1OjEzKzAwOjAwsJXROwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMi0wOS0yMlQxMDozNToxMysw MDowMMHIaYcAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: James Taylor's _Sweet Baby James_: "Steamroller" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2; envelope-from=larsi@gnus.org; helo=quimby.gnus.org X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:295968 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: > It has some advantages, tho: > - I think the vast majority of those who are familiar with generalized > variables know the "lvalue" term as well, so there is not much loss. > - A non-negligible number of people who don't know "place" or > "generalized variables" have heard to word "lvalue" in one course > or another. > - "lvalue" is known to Wikipedia, contrary to "generalized variables". > - "lvalue" is shorter than "generalized variables". > - "lvalue" is obviously a special term with a technical meaning, contrary > to "place". > > The downside I can see (beside the obvious churn) is that the > explanation of lvalue in Wikipedia might prove more confusing > than helful. Yeah, I don't think anybody would find the Wikipedia definition of "l-value" (which is how they spell it) to be helpful when understanding Lisp. And I'm not sure I do either -- in C, for instance, an l-value is something that can be assigned to, but in Lisp, a generalised variable is way more abstract, and can do most anything. (When that "anything" is very weird, we discourage them, but still.) So I'd rather keep "generalized variable", long and unwieldy as it is. I think we should avoid "place" as much as possible, though.