From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 00:22:38 +0100 Message-ID: <87y1f2eev5.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1f6s3eb.fsf@yahoo.com> <4b3eacb7-9b0b-7167-d9ef-4d06167b5411@gutov.dev> <87il69qe0h.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v8a8vmd3.fsf@web.de> <87ttpsf2eb.fsf@dataswamp.org> <877cmno1th.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40287"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:e9KFoDOYUYVHfO5kbYQl+MmnrD4= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 13 04:18:47 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r2NTK-000ADh-U1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 04:18:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2NST-0002ob-HA; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 22:17:53 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2Jn5-0007oV-6g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 18:22:55 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2Jn3-0005cB-AF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 18:22:54 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r2Jn1-0006Yl-5H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 00:22:51 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 22:17:52 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312686 Archived-At: Michael Heerdegen wrote: >>> BTW, a "set.el" library is on our wishlist, complementing >>> seq.el and map.el. >> >> Good idea - but are you allowed to use cl-lib from it? > > That would not make much sense. Why not? Because then cl-lib would have to be loaded and we are not allowed to do that? But even so, tell me then, how will additional functions dealing with sets, supposedly added to set.el, how would they not contribute to the increased complexity of Emacs Lisp the same way cl-lib has? A computer program is a bunch of files, this whole strategy is putting a limit how good an individual file can be, because that increases the overall complexity over a large amount of such files, that a few maintainers have taken on to maintain. That is a problem on the human side. And not all humans side, even, as all the people who have used cl-lib in their source and in their source for Emacs are, of course, humans as well. So there are two different human perspectives. On the technology side alone, if a file can be improved by using a library, how is that not the right thing? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal