TROLL is a HATE terminology

TROLL is a HATE terminology

[Fren Zeee]

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No civil discussion can take place without removal of hate terminology in
the sphere of academia

Troll must now be formally declared a hate terminology

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism
using alist or plist ?
To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Cc: "Emacs Dev [emacs-devel]" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>




On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org>wrote:

> Fren Zeee writes:
>  > Thien-Thi was on the right track and understood the problem well as his
>  > reply indicate as far as I understood it. He has disappeared or refusing
> to
>  > show up. probably this nourishes the ego of such geeks.
>
> You would be best advised to stop trolling.  Everybody on this list
> knows how to use a killfile; by now you're in many.
>

"troll" is a prejudicial terminology, worse than anti-semitism, anti-gypsies
...  and reserved for hating those who need help by those who got some
chance via university or company courses --- all ultimately from tax payer
money to learn ...

Ask Robert Stallman if emacs is based on lisp and if McCarthy invented it
from tax payer funded government grants to MIT or if it rained from moon ?

Be clear, precise and objective in your replies. I challenge you to rebut me
on this point of funding !!! Your phd is most likely funded from tax payer
money and even if you did TA ship, the infra-structure is public funding ...


Troll is a hate terminology. Dont ever use it ...

just get it.

Franz Xe

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Re: TROLL is a HATE terminology

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 12.12.2010 21:57, schrieb Fren Zeee:
> No civil discussion can take place without removal of hate terminology in
> the sphere of academia
>
> Troll must now be formally declared a hate terminology
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Fren Zeee<frenzeee@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 12:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Fwd: How to remove verbosity from the data passing mechanism
> using alist or plist ?
> To: "Stephen J. Turnbull"<stephen@xemacs.org>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Cc: "Emacs Dev [emacs-devel]"<emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull<stephen@xemacs.org>wrote:
>
>> Fren Zeee writes:
>>   >  Thien-Thi was on the right track and understood the problem well as his
>>   >  reply indicate as far as I understood it. He has disappeared or refusing
>> to
>>   >  show up. probably this nourishes the ego of such geeks.
>>
>> You would be best advised to stop trolling.  Everybody on this list
>> knows how to use a killfile; by now you're in many.
>>
>
> "troll" is a prejudicial terminology, worse than anti-semitism, anti-gypsies
> ...  and reserved for hating those who need help by those who got some
> chance via university or company courses --- all ultimately from tax payer
> money to learn ...
>
> Ask Robert Stallman if emacs is based on lisp and if McCarthy invented it
> from tax payer funded government grants to MIT or if it rained from moon ?
>
> Be clear, precise and objective in your replies. I challenge you to rebut me
> on this point of funding !!! Your phd is most likely funded from tax payer
> money and even if you did TA ship, the infra-structure is public funding ...
>
>
> Troll is a hate terminology. Dont ever use it ...
>
> just get it.
>
> Franz Xe
>

Hi Franz,

be confident, the public will able to read and consider arguments.
Accusing someone of being this or that is not an argument, "Troll" 
certainly is not an argument.

Let's calm down and consider whats at stake.
Please don't take the path extending "hate laws".

Hate is just the backside of love.
You must forbid all mankind to get rid of it.

Andreas

Re: TROLL is a HATE terminology

[Lennart Borgman]

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Andreas Röhler
<andreas.roehler@online.de> wrote:
> Am 12.12.2010 21:57, schrieb Fren Zeee:
>>
>> Troll is a hate terminology. Dont ever use it ...
>>
>> just get it.
>>
>> Franz Xe
>>
>
> Hi Franz,
>
> be confident, the public will able to read and consider arguments.
> Accusing someone of being this or that is not an argument, "Troll" certainly
> is not an argument.
>
> Let's calm down and consider whats at stake.
> Please don't take the path extending "hate laws".
>
> Hate is just the backside of love.
> You must forbid all mankind to get rid of it.

Hi Franz,
Some words from me too. (And I have never used a kill file. I am too
curious for that. I would guess those using rough language would
rather try to avoid sending to me ;-)

Even though some replies on this list may be frustrating it is mostly
because of misunderstandings. After reading this list for a long time
I did not even know what the word "troll" meant on internet. I had to
look it up when I first saw it being used in a group discussing open
source software. I was surprised both by the unkind attitude and the
lack of knowledge of the subject discussed in those using the word
"troll".

But please be assured that people here on this list tries to do their
best (but we sometimes fail, we are human ;-)

Re: TROLL is a HATE terminology

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

The emacs-devel and help-gnu-emacs lists have my deepest apologies.  I
did not expect my private message, offering sincere advice, to receive
such an obnoxious reply on any public list, let alone one I don't
participate in.

Sincerely yours,

Re: TROLL is a HATE terminology

[Fren Zeee]

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 3:48 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
> The emacs-devel and help-gnu-emacs lists have my deepest apologies.  I
> did not expect my private message, offering sincere advice, to receive
> such an obnoxious reply on any public list, let alone one I don't
> participate in.
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
>

Stephen, If you inspect my first reply to your email, which I realized
a little later was private, it was an error, and I wanted to add to
the help mailing lists, but then decided to send it anyways,

It is not personally against you at all.

It is mainly against the terminology of "troll" ... evidence being
that I forked off a thread under a different title.

It is well known that there are various subversive organizations and
agencies whose full time paid agents are on the internet and they are
quite malicious as a result of their organizational structuring if not
by personal intent.

They are operating to stop the normal human exchange, say trade and
sharing of knowledge.

It is a fact that I had _high regard_ for you, and hope to have so in
the future.

Thats why your post (later i realized ... a private email) made me
think and it was a eureka moment to realize what troll stood for and I
expressed it clearly. Other authors above have said that they could
not understand this vague term whose true meaning is only known by its
context of usage. I thank them for their contribution and testimonial.

Because it has no dictionary meaning, it continued to be used
effectively by dark forces to denigrade people. My post should help
label it as what it really is.

You probably unconsciously picked it up ... where I gave the benefit of doubt.

I dont think my post paints you in any poor light ... just that
members of human extended family can sometimes have a little
miscommunication.

However, I extend my apologies also to anyone who might have been hurt
by any strong word of mine.

Now, as far as "helpful" suggestion is concerned, here is an example
of rather business-like but a helpful post  ... the criteria being
advancing the original topic of that thread. I am sure many others
would benefit by the answer. In person, in all my academic classes, I
know that many people have thanked me for asking questions on their
behalf ... and won respect of most of my professors. Now, as we get
older, our capacity to learn new subjects can deteriorate a little.

====
Chad Brown
 to me, Emacs
	
show details Dec 7 (7 days ago)
	
On Dec 7, 2010, at 1:24 PM, Fren Zeee wrote:

> The question is VERY CLEAR !!! and SPECIFIC at the LAST STAGE !!!

Even with the CAPITAL LETTERS and the TRIPLE EXCLAMATION
POINTS!!!, I still have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.

Perhaps you would be helped by evaluating both of these in emacs:

       (pp (list 1 2))
       (pp (cons 1 2))

or perhaps:

       (pp (list (list 1 2) (list 3 4)))
       (pp (list (cons 1 2) (cons 3 4) (cons 5 6)))

I say `perhaps', because I don't really know what you're trying to
accomplish.

I hope that helps,
*Chad

Re: TROLL is a HATE terminology

[Fren Zeee]

It is well known that there are various subversive organizations and
agencies whose full time paid agents are on the internet and they are
quite malicious as a result of their organizational structuring if not
by personal intent.

They are operating to stop the normal human exchange, say trade and
sharing of knowledge.

The way they operate is by diverting discussion on thread into flames and so on.

Why the person tries to revert the thread back, they call him or her a troll.

They invented the terminology of troll.

Now this behavior has been propagated into the general public and for
a professor to use it made me pause and reflect on the whole matter
...

... and advance my thesis.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 3:48 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
>> The emacs-devel and help-gnu-emacs lists have my deepest apologies.  I
>> did not expect my private message, offering sincere advice, to receive
>> such an obnoxious reply on any public list, let alone one I don't
>> participate in.
>>
>> Sincerely yours,
>>
>>
>
> Stephen, If you inspect my first reply to your email, which I realized
> a little later was private, it was an error, and I wanted to add to
> the help mailing lists, but then decided to send it anyways,
>
> It is not personally against you at all.
>
> It is mainly against the terminology of "troll" ... evidence being
> that I forked off a thread under a different title.
>
> It is well known that there are various subversive organizations and
> agencies whose full time paid agents are on the internet and they are
> quite malicious as a result of their organizational structuring if not
> by personal intent.
>
> They are operating to stop the normal human exchange, say trade and
> sharing of knowledge.
>
> It is a fact that I had _high regard_ for you, and hope to have so in
> the future.
>
> Thats why your post (later i realized ... a private email) made me
> think and it was a eureka moment to realize what troll stood for and I
> expressed it clearly. Other authors above have said that they could
> not understand this vague term whose true meaning is only known by its
> context of usage. I thank them for their contribution and testimonial.
>
> Because it has no dictionary meaning, it continued to be used
> effectively by dark forces to denigrade people. My post should help
> label it as what it really is.
>
> You probably unconsciously picked it up ... where I gave the benefit of doubt.
>
> I dont think my post paints you in any poor light ... just that
> members of human extended family can sometimes have a little
> miscommunication.
>
> However, I extend my apologies also to anyone who might have been hurt
> by any strong word of mine.
>
> Now, as far as "helpful" suggestion is concerned, here is an example
> of rather business-like but a helpful post  ... the criteria being
> advancing the original topic of that thread. I am sure many others
> would benefit by the answer. In person, in all my academic classes, I
> know that many people have thanked me for asking questions on their
> behalf ... and won respect of most of my professors. Now, as we get
> older, our capacity to learn new subjects can deteriorate a little.
>
> ====
> Chad Brown
>  to me, Emacs
>
> show details Dec 7 (7 days ago)
>
> On Dec 7, 2010, at 1:24 PM, Fren Zeee wrote:
>
>> The question is VERY CLEAR !!! and SPECIFIC at the LAST STAGE !!!
>
> Even with the CAPITAL LETTERS and the TRIPLE EXCLAMATION
> POINTS!!!, I still have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.
>
> Perhaps you would be helped by evaluating both of these in emacs:
>
>       (pp (list 1 2))
>       (pp (cons 1 2))
>
> or perhaps:
>
>       (pp (list (list 1 2) (list 3 4)))
>       (pp (list (cons 1 2) (cons 3 4) (cons 5 6)))
>
> I say `perhaps', because I don't really know what you're trying to
> accomplish.
>
> I hope that helps,
> *Chad
>

Re: TROLL is a HATE terminology

[Fren Zeee]

When the person tries to revert the thread back, they call him or her a troll.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is well known that there are various subversive organizations and
> agencies whose full time paid agents are on the internet and they are
> quite malicious as a result of their organizational structuring if not
> by personal intent.
>
> They are operating to stop the normal human exchange, say trade and
> sharing of knowledge.
>
> The way they operate is by diverting discussion on thread into flames and so on.
>
> Why the person tries to revert the thread back, they call him or her a troll.
>
> They invented the terminology of troll.
>
> Now this behavior has been propagated into the general public and for
> a professor to use it made me pause and reflect on the whole matter
> ...
>
> ... and advance my thesis.
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 3:48 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen@xemacs.org> wrote:
>>> The emacs-devel and help-gnu-emacs lists have my deepest apologies.  I
>>> did not expect my private message, offering sincere advice, to receive
>>> such an obnoxious reply on any public list, let alone one I don't
>>> participate in.
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Stephen, If you inspect my first reply to your email, which I realized
>> a little later was private, it was an error, and I wanted to add to
>> the help mailing lists, but then decided to send it anyways,
>>
>> It is not personally against you at all.
>>
>> It is mainly against the terminology of "troll" ... evidence being
>> that I forked off a thread under a different title.
>>
>> It is well known that there are various subversive organizations and
>> agencies whose full time paid agents are on the internet and they are
>> quite malicious as a result of their organizational structuring if not
>> by personal intent.
>>
>> They are operating to stop the normal human exchange, say trade and
>> sharing of knowledge.
>>
>> It is a fact that I had _high regard_ for you, and hope to have so in
>> the future.
>>
>> Thats why your post (later i realized ... a private email) made me
>> think and it was a eureka moment to realize what troll stood for and I
>> expressed it clearly. Other authors above have said that they could
>> not understand this vague term whose true meaning is only known by its
>> context of usage. I thank them for their contribution and testimonial.
>>
>> Because it has no dictionary meaning, it continued to be used
>> effectively by dark forces to denigrade people. My post should help
>> label it as what it really is.
>>
>> You probably unconsciously picked it up ... where I gave the benefit of doubt.
>>
>> I dont think my post paints you in any poor light ... just that
>> members of human extended family can sometimes have a little
>> miscommunication.
>>
>> However, I extend my apologies also to anyone who might have been hurt
>> by any strong word of mine.
>>
>> Now, as far as "helpful" suggestion is concerned, here is an example
>> of rather business-like but a helpful post  ... the criteria being
>> advancing the original topic of that thread. I am sure many others
>> would benefit by the answer. In person, in all my academic classes, I
>> know that many people have thanked me for asking questions on their
>> behalf ... and won respect of most of my professors. Now, as we get
>> older, our capacity to learn new subjects can deteriorate a little.
>>
>> ====
>> Chad Brown
>>  to me, Emacs
>>
>> show details Dec 7 (7 days ago)
>>
>> On Dec 7, 2010, at 1:24 PM, Fren Zeee wrote:
>>
>>> The question is VERY CLEAR !!! and SPECIFIC at the LAST STAGE !!!
>>
>> Even with the CAPITAL LETTERS and the TRIPLE EXCLAMATION
>> POINTS!!!, I still have no idea what you're trying to accomplish.
>>
>> Perhaps you would be helped by evaluating both of these in emacs:
>>
>>       (pp (list 1 2))
>>       (pp (cons 1 2))
>>
>> or perhaps:
>>
>>       (pp (list (list 1 2) (list 3 4)))
>>       (pp (list (cons 1 2) (cons 3 4) (cons 5 6)))
>>
>> I say `perhaps', because I don't really know what you're trying to
>> accomplish.
>>
>> I hope that helps,
>> *Chad
>>
>

Re: TROLL is a HATE terminology

[Fren Zeee]

If the definition of troll is what wiki gives that it applies not on
me but on those who have written replies that never pertained to the
original "subject" of the thread. "no obligation" is not an argument,
because in any communication if there is a partial reply it should be
finished by "i am ending communication" or "i will continue
communication" otherwise the other person is left hanging.

Even a simple communication protocol like TCP/IP requires these
elements. Thien-Thi gave a partial reply and then no reply. he could
say this is all i can do, so some others could continue. These are
just basic manners. while the professor Turnbull came and use the verb
trolling which did not contribute to the subject of the thread also.

There are two more people who have indicated that the term troll is
used from the context on hating or is no argument. I use apropos and
existing facilites of help a lot and have my own special shortcuts for
them as well as the elisp manual.

Maybe, you could have replied to the other technical thread (subject:
... verbosity ...) also than writing this long essay on this one.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Ken Raeburn <raeburn@raeburn.org> wrote:
> On Dec 14, 2010, at 14:03, Fren Zeee wrote:
>> Thats why your post (later i realized ... a private email) made me
>> think and it was a eureka moment to realize what troll stood for and I
>> expressed it clearly. Other authors above have said that they could
>> not understand this vague term whose true meaning is only known by its
>> context of usage. I thank them for their contribution and testimonial.
>>
>> Because it has no dictionary meaning, it continued to be used
>> effectively by dark forces to denigrade people. My post should help
>> label it as what it really is.
>
> Depends on your dictionary, I guess.  See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) or http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll or other sources.  Wikipedia says trolling is use of "inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community...with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting the normal on-topic discussion"; the term derives from a fishing technique (and according to Wikipedia, the term for the same type of Internet persona in other languages also often derives from fishing terms).  It was used in response to your remarks on Thien-Thi's not continuing to provide you with help: "He has disappeared or refusing to show up. probably this nourishes the ego of such geeks."  In my limited experience, "trolls" are usually a bit more off-topic, not really interested in learning anything, but such an ad-hominem remark is characteristic; perhaps in other corners of the Internet the term is applied a little differently.  Regardless, I don't see it as "hate terminology", especially in the verb form, but as a description of observed actions, especially if there is a pattern to the behavior.  On the other hand, the way you use "geek" sounds rather derogatory; I find your statement at least as offensive as the label of "troll", perhaps in part because you're labeling the person, while the label "trolling" was applied to your actions on these mailing lists.
>
> (As to the question of a pattern, "hating those who need help by those who got some chance via university or company courses --- all ultimately from tax payer money to learn" also seems intended to provoke, to me.)
>
> Please remember, this is a volunteer effort; you don't have a support contract, no one is being paid to help you, and no one owes it to you.  Perhaps Thien-Thi is busy with his day job, or family matters, or illness, or something else that's quite reasonably more important to him than teaching you about Emacs Lisp programming.  Perhaps he doesn't mind answering a question now and then but doesn't want to be cast as your regular tutor.  I don't know, and for the most part it doesn't really matter.  It's not his job, and he didn't have to reply to you in the first place.  I see no reason to suspect he's intentionally "withholding" anything from you.
>
> Many people on these lists *want* to help, when they can, based on knowledge, available time, etc.  But they also expect some things of you, for example: that you communicate clearly what you're asking (and I've seen cases before where reasonable people have significantly different communication styles, or too little common ground between them, or different ways of thinking about something, or just a fundamental misunderstanding that neither recognizes, such that it takes a lot of work for them to be able to communicate with each other effectively); that you don't ask a lot of questions already answered in published documentation, especially if you've already been referred to it; that you send questions only to the appropriate list (or, very rarely, lists, plural); that you be willing to look at a little code, or look through help file indexes (or for Emacs, use M-x apropros), or do some experiments to try to figure out how things work first (especially if you're asking on the developers list rather than the help list); that you not attack the people helping you, or insist that they owe you more help than they're giving.  I'm not saying you haven't done these things; I haven't paid that much attention, and don't have time to.  But you might ask yourself whether you have, or whether people seem to think you haven't.
>
> Then again, the developers list is not primarily focused on helping people learn their way around Emacs, and learn to program in Emacs Lisp.  Unlike on the "help" lists, that's not primarily why people join.  Insisting that they answer all your questions isn't likely to be well received.
>
> Please have a little more respect for the people trying to help out here, even if they can't help you as much as you might like, and more tolerance for the occasionally abrasive ones.  More than you think they're showing you, if possible.
>
> Ken

Re: TROLL is a HATE terminology

[Chong Yidong]

Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:

> If the definition of troll is what wiki gives that it applies not on
> me but on those who have written replies that never pertained to the
> ...

Please take this off-list.  Thanks.

Re: TROLL is a HATE terminology

[Fren Zeee]

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> wrote:
> Fren Zeee <frenzeee@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> If the definition of troll is what wiki gives that it applies not on
>> me but on those who have written replies that never pertained to the
>> ...
>
> Please take this off-list.  Thanks.
>

I would also like this thread to end ( ... and the other picked up ...
) but with some conclusive notes.

I would also like to take credit which was not recognized but need
emphasis ... how I ignored the flame bait by stephan monnier in the
very early stages of discussion.

It is important to remind people again and again that much .. almost
total of the development of science and technology is funded on the
tax payer money. This will keep us ethical in the long run.

cheers
Franz Xe