From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: bidi-display-reordering is now non-nil by default Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:35:40 +0200 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87wrey7n5v.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <20110731.082721.451360942.wl@gnu.org> <20110731.085115.40009301.wl@gnu.org> <877h6yanje.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <878vre95g3.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <874o2293n8.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1312108573 1114 80.91.229.12 (31 Jul 2011 10:36:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:36:13 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 31 12:36:09 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QnTNR-0002MV-9b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:36:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37089 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnTNQ-0006K7-QU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 06:36:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41461) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnTNO-0006K1-7Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 06:36:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnTNN-0005PA-CA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 06:36:06 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:36182) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QnTNN-0005P5-1g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 06:36:05 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QnTNM-0002LL-15 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:36:04 +0200 Original-Received: from p508ed76e.dip.t-dialin.net ([80.142.215.110]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:36:03 +0200 Original-Received: from dak by p508ed76e.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:36:03 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 31 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p508ed76e.dip.t-dialin.net X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:IIS7qEtLlxJMGWovB0c53dTJI5k= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:142556 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Maybe. Bidi is a feature of display, i.e. it's impossible to > correctly display text in some scripts without it. With today's deep > and wide m17n, whereby file names and network addresses can use R2L > characters, saying "my mode doesn't have bidi" is tantamount to saying > "my mode doesn't support certain cultures". Emacs is a desktop environment with at best marginal internationalization, and editing texts is only a small part of its functionality. I think it is delusional to prescribe that all modes and programming languages should in the name of culture-friendliness be thought of as bidirectional by default when virtually no aspect of Emacs' user interfaces (short of tutorials in multiple languages) departs from English. Making Emacs viable for working with bidirectional material is an excellent thing. But Emacs needs to make much greater strides in internationalization before it makes sense to have bidi efforts be opt-out rather than opt-in in modes and buffers. There is a reason text-mode is opt-out rather than opt-in, and I think it would cause much less trouble if we make bidi-paragraph-direction default to left-to-right, set it to nil in text-mode, and add similar settings to RMAIL and other modes on an as-needed basis. > Whether this is reasonable or not, I cannot judge. Everything can be reasoned, but we still need to make choices. -- David Kastrup