From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to opt out of curly-quote spamming altogether? Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:36:49 +0200 Message-ID: <87wpwkr0se.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: > <834mjoha4r.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1440441420 26217 80.91.229.3 (24 Aug 2015 18:37:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:37:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 24 20:36:59 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTwc7-0001uE-Kg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:36:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56030 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTwc7-0005iB-3G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 14:36:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58779) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTwbz-0005hv-U5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 14:36:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTwby-0006hg-NH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 14:36:51 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:55047) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTwby-0006ha-Jb; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 14:36:50 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40633 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZTwbx-0004SK-Rr; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 14:36:50 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 423C7DF41C; Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:36:49 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 24 Aug 2015 10:57:49 -0700 (PDT)") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189119 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: > Typically, presentation is a separate layer or process, and the > same structure/content can be, by choice, presented in different > ways (for different media, among other things). Inline code is > typically presented using a fixed-width font, such as Courier, as > opposed to ordinary text, which is typically presented using a > proportional font. Glossary terms might be presented using bold > or colored text, perhaps linked to a glossary entry. And so on. > > Anyone used to LaTeX or Tex is used to this separation, for example. That's an interesting statement since plain TeX does not in any manner provide semantic commands (it switches to a typewriter font when using verbatim but the reason for that is quite banally that normal text fonts are not able to print all ASCII characters as they use, say, text quotes instead of ` and ' characters and some other, more glaring substitutions). Plain TeX does not even have an \em command for emphasizing things. You need to decide yourself whether to use italics or boldface or underlining or whatever. LaTeX tries to be a bit more semantic, but the sort of differentiation that Texinfo requires would require loading quite a number of non-core packages. > I'm surprised if Texinfo/makeinfo does not provide for it - if an > inline code snippet or key binding necessarily ends up with a > presentation that is identical to ordinary text quoting (curly quotes, > whether single or double). Texinfo is primarily semantic markup. Various backends decide how to typeset things. In its text mode, plain TeX as well as texinfo.tex convert ` and ' characters into proper English symmetric quote marks (the respective default _text_ fonts do not have a straight quote mark or a backquote in their corresponding character slots). The proper representation in Unicode is the use of the English =E2=80=98quote marks=E2= =80=99: those are the proper characters for the glyphs TeX and Texinfo use for text fonts in the slots for ` and '. Consequently, it is quite correct that those are the output for the preformatted Info pages. > There's no crime, only a regression for users. I cannot say who or > what is responsible, nor does it matter what I think about that. Indeed. Most particularly since you are late to the game, do not bother with getting yourself acquainted with the matter at hand and vent in the wrong place. This is done by Texinfo already when generating Info. I think that at some point in the past, it was Emacs as Info viewer which converted `' into curved quotes, but that obviously had to be based on heuristics and was unreliable. In contrast, a Drew-mode converting =E2=80=98=E2=80=99 bac= k into `' should be able to do its job unambiguously. There has not been much of an interest expressed elsewhere, so it's likely up to you to program it. Or complain to the Texinfo developer list in your signature style. Good luck. --=20 David Kastrup