From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 09:18:03 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87worxu66s.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87k1oeaofu.fsf@ada> <20180825103413.gbm5stsl67j6weow@Ergus> <87k1od7vzf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83wosd5h3x.fsf@gnu.org> <871sakzssu.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83bm9n6f7d.fsf@gnu.org> <87tvneql3i.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83o9dl2oob.fsf@gnu.org> <87y3coopyf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <8736uvmn44.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87y3chqre4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87va7j65s6.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536309843 6836 195.159.176.226 (7 Sep 2018 08:44:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 08:44:03 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Filipp Gunbin Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 07 10:43:58 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCMw-0001eZ-JF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:43:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37447 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCP2-0002AU-Uq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:46:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41951) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCOg-00029D-4c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:45:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCOe-0004m3-Sa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:45:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5301::9]:18997) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCOe-0004iM-IQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:45:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536309943; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=xX0U+KwCdev9RUxxwTIjE+wALK6SH9bq/l64Y4Mk9Og=; b=qc4gulSI5UGgBxgbUdfTUo4ig2mlzHkGsNDDKGMHtGribMwwf3glKRlVtXonpAluYA pU8BjP/Lhto2EKVy5obOaUTZLfbWC5M2Xwwm+rxMiIYaslEy6dmYMKzg0pX+eOHlzOp3 +N/Rp/5GogrgbVqkdR/6PKaIezHiqgH8nEqMTsZK9paAI5BiEWM7cSztmMxDgPiWdb3k 2UgksELLkBcqpSLjVJXzcYhOMirrUNEDoqiqkYVQdCu0RB4QBufzcVt+PRp7E23GuAy6 Ccf4UcMg/7NoSkLz46AlZauiF52k6St30+aq9dEaEQr5cfWik4esBwoSdk96uJ/2NN6Z R+9A== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u878jdB2H (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Fri, 7 Sep 2018 10:45:39 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCOZ-0000nw-6K; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:45:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Filipp Gunbin's message of "Thu, 06 Sep 2018 21:15:08 +0300") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5301::9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229380 Archived-At: Filipp Gunbin writes: > [...] >> Please try word-wise movement on a German keyboard with these keys. Do >> not use the Alt key for this because it has been almost 30 years that it >> was not possible to use that like ESC at all. Force yourself to do it >> for at least two hours; after that, you may use the Alt key and try for >> another two hours. Then tell me how useful these key bindindings really >> are :) > > I've never worked on a German keyboard (but I've just read > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout). So what's your > exact problem with Alt's? > > I do work with Russian keyboard, and I usually use US layout when > working with Emacs, and have (setq default-input-method > 'russian-computer) in .emacs, so C-\ switches to it. I've never used a Russian one. That might make a nice collectors item :) > You should have 2 Ctrl's and 2 Alt's (one of which could be AltGr) on a > German keyboard, so you should be in same situations as other users. AltGr is not an Alt key. There is only *one* Alt key on German keyboards, and it's on the left side. They also have AltGr, and that is an entirely different modifier: keycode 64 = Alt_L Meta_L Alt_L Meta_L keycode 92 = ISO_Level3_Shift NoSymbol ISO_Level3_Shift These two keys do entirely different things. A German keyboard is not usable for German when you turn AlGr into Alt. An US keyboard is not usable for German because it is missing some important keys. IIRC, Alt is Mod4 and AltGr is Mod5. Since they invented the additional useless keys, these keys have all become so small that the useless ones get in the way and it's difficult to hit what you want. That's the only disadvantage of my current keyboard, otherwise it's even better than a Model M. If it wasn't for that, I'd be using one of those. >>> Well, this thread looks like you're describing how you fight with Emacs >>> defaults. You could make your own set of customizations and see what >>> comes out of it. Maybe others will find them useful. >> >> You could always change the default to your preference after it has >> changed to something people are more likely to know. You could propose >> that all web browsers start using 'l' to move backwards in history, >> too. > > It's really the first time I heard of Alt+arrow bindings. Maybe that's > because I don't use keyboard for navigation in a web browser :-) It's much easier than finding the right icon, especially when they made the icon so small ...