From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:53:04 +0800 Message-ID: <87wo6a7abj.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a736wyed.fsf@yahoo.com> <2F7AD0CB-FF83-4244-BD77-7E0460A77762@icloud.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="54911"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: =?utf-8?Q?S=C3=A9bastien?= Gendre , Emacs developers To: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 20 11:53:48 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQT7c-000ECN-Ay for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 11:53:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60738 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQT7b-0006pL-E0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:53:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48614 helo=eggs1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQT76-0006P6-MB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:53:17 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs1p.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQT76-00065S-5o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:53:16 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic316-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.148]:37126) by eggs1p.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQT75-000645-Nr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 05:53:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1587376394; bh=CVCZOEscfWzEm9G9CGZHM+UaeBs3dbJ2I0Q/ESsEiR8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=f2SwwKh5jgwbYFNxLn9QzGlnXp5a5TRsKVQKryBuqxRWzUsbJgjsJa4aqO2EfiV22FvGqFszg6OM8KIl406n4f4adLw/TnGcZ5farwCAvBcozqRSBnRkjddvnggKsuLNiFlAfRc1Q/FAnS29hRHLXO6RLqDhFlfXbODfcDM7kB/R0jicb3Cd6OkvKuXhUa8kizyoMUEX9YYiD6MIXq5BOr8G37LrW9nRirT4ZJTBYLhyevJHojrsW377xj7HVCScKar3o72cN6vkpx55PrTR4RHmskFZDPbDLgzWCPOJMtrc9vJEHNrYQ+oZZQfOA5gFdcoKsP/fWiCqgE70dNyOlQ== X-YMail-OSG: 8o2S1kYVM1k7kDpjAw01rdRSXY9QWQpjN7sKiqS9tWZtqVOsV3ahj8AG27rjoyy BO4oVhjlN3pdwtOzdtz.JhWXOUGVqyMblellKhDCIbBhMJ9dMaUX.D.L58mbcQP4bqTZDvgxPr.d 10749KbL1kUa2ORwOeVfSmnUUreT5Oo2I3U0FVPjArpfZq7AnP3ACi6dzWsMbZ59NtKXQdBYiEmi pwZQNFqK7iQUncjl3nb0g7OlXcdjXwZnP2u9yjeRerfb5jEfMYWk2ngU9fVh8KIKbyGCwkhm.CY6 .1Kk2.oTTJ4tDirwjgwkdfcCcuuqvZeA0xwJhL9pDrVNvrMz3goyU_jAkynr_pF_6BQdAPvndBLR M.lAZY7WE5TURYPYSMPSXnpJ9ytyryYE4tyWiV60hssaIylXL18nHHdvbJD0cfID6ZiG0yk6nwRL j0ISBdQ.Qn3aDsYl4I8qySJCDqqtQOxoKsLcf70mObBgRgks6Qyw8yO3FGsLeAUs6D6RKr8xsgef 4YTMd1LyY.lTQ7o7x4PKmayTSKe_kLAxaAnX64n.Lznvp_3i5Cc9wpmaxKvK1EHLN0hA.QxpZRtL HkFJRuB9Hkrz2P0UCbItHqELGi1f2.sG3VulyRI6RI.WkJ4DSYlaKPblUxLy7.p0ozh7KqBfHhJz KSz_WWREEfEZ3mHiu4DtLVwGmHbif6Nj.uW1jboI.T6gyvUUlTm6JL8Uut4SfVDanjmtBg5XXW6y TNwaL8Y4GcTQQXYOWf8eLnBckcsdXpVsj3C0pJnSjXl7BLHxPQ.nYsnh5PrAoaYpgkGgMOV3tf9C mpwi6.kipveVx5OFAWQQFx0UspPIPvhO1YjtmA_QfM Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:53:14 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp416.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a20f3f889b10a7121ca25fb5dc778a85; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:53:08 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <2F7AD0CB-FF83-4244-BD77-7E0460A77762@icloud.com> (=?utf-8?B?IuyhsOyEseu5iCIncw==?= message of "Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:08:33 +0900") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.187.148; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic316-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs1p.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/20 05:25:19 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Received-From: 66.163.187.148 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247371 Archived-At: =EC=A1=B0=EC=84=B1=EB=B9=88 writes: > I can=E2=80=99t understand why you=E2=80=99re so opposed to changing defa= ults. Defaults > matter, and I think that users who are already accustomed to Emacs will > have an easier time changing options. (Like adding `(vanilla-mode 1)` > to init.el.) I oppose changing defaults, because I value my tools remaining stable. Having to frequently adjust my user-emacs-directory to encompass the latest fancy new idea is an unacceptable maintenance burden to me. Not to mention in practice, those changes are going to be far larger than a hypothetical `vanilla-mode'. > Adding a variable that makes Emacs warn if it=E2=80=99s version number is > different from its value might work. I'm not sure what you're talking about; Variables don't persist across Emacs sessions. > The features that are best discoverable are the ones that are default. And since changing the defaults radically end up hurting existing users, and also existing packages and potentially the existing ecosystem. You have to find a balance between that, and changing the defaults is not the balance you want. > Defaults have to change for experienced users to adjust. And for them, > adjusting is an easy task, not something that takes a decade. "For existing users to adjust" is not an excuse -- that puts an extra burden on users.