From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yoni Rabkin Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:58:32 -0400 Message-ID: <87wo15adtj.fsf@rabkins.net> References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> <20200906203807.u237c3h22oxwtmba@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="2260"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 15:59:08 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFHfo-0000Vp-8Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 15:59:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47550 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFHfn-0001SG-7e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:59:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41038) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFHfJ-0000ze-HJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:58:37 -0400 Original-Received: from smtprelay0103.hostedemail.com ([216.40.44.103]:43778 helo=smtprelay.hostedemail.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFHfH-0003Tr-Ti for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:58:37 -0400 Original-Received: from filter.hostedemail.com (clb03-v110.bra.tucows.net [216.40.38.60]) by smtprelay04.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A46180A7FD7; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 13:58:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Session-Marker: 796F6E69407261626B696E732E6E6574 X-HE-Tag: test83_2911964270cc X-Filterd-Recvd-Size: 3130 Original-Received: from birch.rabkins.net (c-73-238-99-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [73.238.99.162]) (Authenticated sender: yoni@rabkins.net) by omf14.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 13:58:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Ethics: Use GNU In-Reply-To: <20200906203807.u237c3h22oxwtmba@Ergus> (Ergus's message of "Sun, 6 Sep 2020 22:38:07 +0200") Received-SPF: none client-ip=216.40.44.103; envelope-from=yoni@rabkins.net; helo=smtprelay.hostedemail.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/07 09:58:34 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254640 Archived-At: Ergus writes: > I am NOT telling we should do all this, but this is what a young user > expects because all these is more or less standard everywhere else. I appreciate you enthusiasm for making Emacs popular. Thank you for that. However, it is always jarring to me to see free software developers arguing over features none of them like or want, and instead trying to "prove" to the other that a hypothetical third person would really like those features. This supposed "young user" is a pretend person; they don't exist. People ascribe whatever properties they want to the poor hypothetical "young user" and then argue that those properties require a change in Emacs. I disagree with this approach because I think that real people and their preferences are more complicated and subtle than any person we can make up as a tool to back an argument. If you want these features yourself then you should add them (I don't mean that in a sarcastic way at all). Your enthusiasm for creating and maintaining these features will appeal to others who want similar features. We all know and love this way of development in the free software development world. This way assures that at least one real person's needs are being met. If you don't want these features yourself and nobody else in the project wants them either, the only way I can think of making a compelling argument for people to develop those feature is to ask real people and get real responses. I am fairly confident that if you had a testimony or user-test from actual people stating that a feature is missing, then people here would help develop that feature. I develop Emacs extensions (Emms, rt-liberation in GNU ELPA, and others outside of it). I never try to guess what a hypothetical person wants from Emms, but I do actively solicit requests and suggestions from anyone I can, and when someone cares enough to ask for a feature, I do everything I can to add it. Indeed, Emms has several extensions and modes that I never use and can't even wrap my head around why people like. But real people asked for them, so they are there. -- "Cut your own wood and it will warm you twice"