From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: TEC Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:07:22 +0800 Message-ID: <87wo10j17p.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87y2lkb6kb.fsf@gmail.com> <9A4FA038-CCFD-45DF-8B57-E348AFF951D9@gmail.com> <87sgbsb0eb.fsf@gmail.com> <87h7s6c31d.fsf@gmail.com> <87een96fpw.fsf@elephly.net> <87sgbo3oga.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38986"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 27.1 Cc: ghe@sdf.org, casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca To: Ricardo Wurmus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 11 08:08:01 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGcE4-000A1A-OR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 08:08:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54126 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGcE3-0007ge-QB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 02:07:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59692) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGcDa-0007Hb-Jn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 02:07:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]:38745) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGcDY-00087M-N8; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 02:07:30 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id l191so5875030pgd.5; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 23:07:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id :date:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZcAxX2ZXYyL0UAcM4+5+DGEf7jPwfNKqRek0kT4Xrl0=; b=kcwP42DZmUYFnMuLaf7y1LqE+Ey5h/xmLtjFXyIv+VseXw0wMhZQXqqnDMjmDRCe8i EcEQ/uqYKwj5eynh9E/kLu5P+Aa4kRD2HIe/6WsAIeOacRvIqABudM2W/pWdiKTjRWAh SjJZqKTONiVqaT2mE/ktsH4af7tWPpUvvVaj7AD/HaD0XcKxhnnhjTag69Udnk+TlR9o EH7Rtba4Izb732hTL2aJoFc62fzDPgXsZwLcJvnMT51dI5P6UAu9LWkQCfWKe9svqClN 5JOJ/a9G5Jn1RsM2VJf/x+gZbG5geB8v3Zmryr1Kpt47D0VO4yWGyPL6N+iWwYRo32pJ eGEw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:message-id:date:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZcAxX2ZXYyL0UAcM4+5+DGEf7jPwfNKqRek0kT4Xrl0=; b=ZN+B0Qe91TnvEJOwYQeLcMWpWblBiKyYkF9xGa3rYsQsHfptcqY+4sW+MIhSumDf3n 0BpYGCHqCrmmLgWVHbqM7vIFKciTsD2V3zq/JldFc46oldT3q5BDdECrbDFbbYaYKPT/ xef1ZTI4F9WCEn2uwmyp2LMNJmLBFIWPooesitwmwgCP/icRpttFwZkYAc01jxDnzBlb rQT/Cw9SFTwJV91hX/bigeFfiY4rMSAjcaDoaj7++A4CjWCP/SejqzkZ/lPu/C2JG31u i+Vk5Lk7VQKDXsEgJf+R6paogoTvCtXeraONPkXL4ZgcjoDJv1acKtYiCR4DZN5FkCNH LzLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Lbzgi9qcmcoheK8RCHLPpvzo8o53wzOyrPCU/vbHhFu7Q1/KX gAceIy2EmEpzo3NQQUMN02Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz8HVLT7fpovWKfY2+t6X131SYmhidpZSDF3z+TS9WOd4VmdZF8PLZlwfA18jZEpQUi7ZZaXA== X-Received: by 2002:a62:1d51:0:b029:13e:d13d:a0fc with SMTP id d78-20020a621d510000b029013ed13da0fcmr709817pfd.24.1599804446807; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 23:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (180-150-91-8.b4965b.per.nbn.aussiebb.net. [180.150.91.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n2sm990644pfe.208.2020.09.10.23.07.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 10 Sep 2020 23:07:26 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <87sgbo3oga.fsf@elephly.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::533; envelope-from=tecosaur@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x533.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255098 Archived-At: Hi Ricardo, In your reply I found something that I think really sums up my experience w= ell. Ricardo Wurmus writes: > [Doom and Spacemacs are good] because > people can dive right into the interesting stuff without getting bogged > down at the worst time: while learning something that is completely > foreign to them. For me, and for others, I feel that this is the crux of the matter. All my comments about Doom's modules allowing me to 'just get started' are in this vein, as are completion, linting, etc. I think Emacs is tremendous (no surprise to anyone reading this =F0=9F=98= =9B, I'm sure). However, I fear that there are many people who /would/ discover how brilliant Emacs is ... were it not for this initial hurdle. I think there are essentially three categories of changes we'd likely want in trying to make Emacs less off-putting: 1. Look - theme, splash screen, etc. 2. Feel - completion, linting, etc. 3. Defaults - changes to functionality already present, e.g. setting utf8 at the default text encoding I hear those long-time users who have years to decades of configuration built on Emacs' current behaviour, I appreciate your need for Emacs' behaviour to stay consistent. I can't see any simple solution which I imagine makes both long-time users, and 'just seeing what this is' newcomers happy --- but that doesn't mean there isn't a way forward. * Some potential avenues to investigate: The most promising idea I've heard is to come up with a clean, and elegant way to allow for users to easily select from/combine different Emacs experiences. Profiles are a nice idea I think. They sound good for easily selecting from a selection of 'presets', but perhaps aren't so good when it comes when use cases blur (as they often do) and one wants to combine functionality. Modules are a nicer approach in this respect, in that you partition common/related functionality into discrete bundles that can be used (or not) as one wishes. Another approach may be to essentially delegate this to 'downstream distributions' like Doom or Spacemacs, by making them trivially easy for the user to chose to use --- as opposed to having them be something that the user has to independently discover/investigate/install. The reason I suggest this is because: - a lot of commonly used packages which help shape Emacs into what I consider a more approachable UX are only in MELPA - these packages seem to generally be frequently updated, and I fear that baking them into Emacs will result in a bifurcation of versions/features/development. This also opens up the annoyance backporting bug fixes etc. That said, I for some 'key' aspects of functionality like code completion, I feel that it would make sense to have something like Company baked into Emacs. Hopefully this can provide some food for thought, Timothy.