From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eric Abrahamsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Stepping Back: A Wealth Of Completion systems Re: [ELPA] New package: vertico Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 08:15:40 -0700 Message-ID: <87wntfphpf.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> References: <9c9af088-580f-9fb1-4d79-237a74ce605c@inventati.org> <874kgkxxs0.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5727"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Manuel Uberti , emacs-devel@gnu.org, "T.V Raman" To: Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 06 17:17:39 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lTnSU-0001Kj-FQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 17:17:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42092 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lTnST-0008II-Di for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 11:17:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55768) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lTnQn-0005hf-OP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 11:15:53 -0400 Original-Received: from ericabrahamsen.net ([52.70.2.18]:41448 helo=mail.ericabrahamsen.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lTnQl-0004nW-HT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2021 11:15:53 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (nat-out-5.ykwc.net [199.68.205.5]) (Authenticated sender: eric@ericabrahamsen.net) by mail.ericabrahamsen.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9515DFA086; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 15:15:42 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericabrahamsen.net; s=mail; t=1617722143; bh=qnG0fEQ2ao2tvFlxB/hH63sWKSHTGMrjaSCu2+2J87Y=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=FJy1JZGQKmweSeYijrWjp/5heAc4NYY6tjO3pYPokP0YsWZAaRT6Chga3jEaaTcN6 WBjG9ppNdyslG1k9yXDk8m0EJQhO9K89Ch4MT4Nwwcdh43d2F1GoqBdgs7FYNWKFxa 0uA8qSTq4c2U8lVwyvOa/7SO8ucEKjvC7IOosGJE= In-Reply-To: <874kgkxxs0.fsf@posteo.net> (Philip Kaludercic's message of "Mon, 05 Apr 2021 22:49:03 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=52.70.2.18; envelope-from=eric@ericabrahamsen.net; helo=mail.ericabrahamsen.net X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:267479 Archived-At: Philip Kaludercic writes: > I guess I can bring up a point I've been meaning to raise here for a > while, and have discussed on other forums. > >> 1. Where invoked -- anywhere in emacs vs minibuffer. >> 2. When invoked -- as in find-file and friends vs everywhere >> something prompts in the minibuffer. >> 3. Using what? the various backends that populate the available >> choices. >> 4. How displayed: How the choices are displayed -- horizontal, >> vertical, and perhaps 3-d in the future. >> 5. How completed: tab, vs prefix vs fuzzy completion vs ... > > I have the feeling all these completion systems are encouraging > confusion around how to use completing-read. That is the 0th point that > is missing here: Are you completing (expanding text) or selecting > (narrowing options). [...] > It might therefore be necessary to actually implement a "selecting-read" > function, that could be used more or less like completing-read, but that > provides a better default UI not based around completing text but > actually selecting objects/items. FWIW I've come to the same conclusion in the past: that using `completing-read' to select from a collection is essentially a (very gentle) hack. More than once I've implemented my own mini-versions of `selecting-read', and have always wanted something more general. This would also allow us to expand our idea of how a thing is chosen: instead of insisting that a string is completed, we could provide a more general framework for choosing a "thing", where the things don't necessarily have a meaningful string representation. Anyway, I don't have a great solution to this problem. Here[0] is something I wrote once to address this. I note this not because it's a great solution (it isn't), but just as evidence of the need. Eric [0]: https://github.com/girzel/gnorb/blob/master/gnorb-utils.el#L222