From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: sqlite3 Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 14:09:38 -0600 Message-ID: <87wnk7kkxp.fsf@red-bean.com> References: <87czm98qi1.fsf@gnu.org> <87o85tcwm0.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <874k7ljwkr.fsf@gnus.org> <87fsr5cuzq.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <878rwx8mdn.fsf@gnu.org> <87zgpdhw4d.fsf@yahoo.com> <2F63580E-FF58-45D0-9DBB-389ED64C0F11@mit.edu> <83v8zzw867.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Karl Fogel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12083"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.90 (gnu/linux) Cc: Qiantan Hong , rms@gnu.org, eric@ericabrahamsen.net, cesar.mena@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, luangruo@yahoo.com, Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 14 21:12:08 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mxE9f-0002rB-MQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 21:12:08 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35814 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mxE9e-0005IP-Mv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 15:12:06 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39998) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mxE7T-0003u7-B0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 15:09:51 -0500 Original-Received: from sanpietro.red-bean.com ([45.79.25.59]:39956) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mxE7Q-0002B9-J8; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 15:09:50 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=red-bean.com; s=202005newsp; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:Reply-To:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=s/03UV2QR5zh5JXDos5AtP2FDEc2NEJWA8FsUTUcWTU=; t=1639512586; x=1640722186; b=ZzOYCLWcPD8la/xIig8MfHhUieGbn5aJb0YkIx0o0rOABezk4UullOSsnrFI1NQb89yNLqmD0CG 5pP6pH7Ad95o0FKZ8HpocfdlpHgqJjqN8zyci9gSwwKkU4i9dKgMgiKMtfwInpXMPMSbRO41/LQQ+ 4cf+GQ1nxkcWugg7Vmh6vFav8v3odENtAO1akpWULPoldpeP0hM4/YKHycOcm4XKg18sUEUh5Oe4p Fzs5VDwBePzkeg11E7w7J25NndL805JcCYE15k/YdWBZRo3AAw3cgV6H0AGbUcVSoTRQVI18OA8lZ xai8PEZ/dWAP+l6M/K69sAX1AVc6wB6DLsVA==; Original-Received: from 99-112-125-163.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net ([99.112.125.163]:43968 helo=floss) by sanpietro.red-bean.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1mxE7H-00H4nK-OJ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 20:09:39 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Fri, 10 Dec 2021 21:25:05 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=45.79.25.59; envelope-from=kfogel@red-bean.com; helo=sanpietro.red-bean.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:281942 Archived-At: On 10 Dec 2021, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >I've never used org-mode in my life, and only tried out gnus >once, >around 20 years ago, when it was too slow and too complicated for >me. >Yet I have to pay the costs of these packages every time I build >Emacs >bootstrap. > >I'm not arguing for a removal of these things, which are clearly >good. >But I think it is reasonable to question the wisdom of adding >more >inessential stuff. You've defined "inessential" in a way that happens to match your particular usage patterns exactly. But for others, such as myself, Gnus and Org Mode are essential :-). In a thread from 2020 ([1], "GNU Emacs raison d'etre"), I offered a different understanding of Emacs's essence: It is the editing environment that best rewards sustained user investment. That differs from your claim that "primarily Emacs is a programmers' text editor". Programming Emacs is simply the highest level of investment, but it doesn't necessarly imply that one is using Emacs *for* computer programming -- often, I'm not. Naturally, users who are programmers are going to have the easiest time investing in their Emacs experience, both due to skills they have and (probably) due to being temperamentally inclined towards patience with such investments. The argument for sqlite3 (or something like it) is that it makes some of those investments easier -- specifically, it makes it easier to do things that involve selective access to large datasets. A concrete example is https://code.librehq.com/kfogel/mailaprop/. Right now, I load all the data in to memory at startup time right, but it's costly -- it noticeably slows down startup. Fortunately, I don't restart Emacs very often, so this is liveable. However, if the dataset were 10x or 20x larger, it would be intolerable. I could of course try out the existing 3rd-party sqlite3 library for Emacs; it's not like there's a huge barrier here. But still, that would mean adding a dependency that I don't currently have. Whereas if the facility were built into Emacs, the barrier would be lower, so I'd be more likely to experiment with selective loading of such datasets. Presumably, the same argument applies to others' applications as well, and we'd have the further advantage that everyone would be using a common facility, so it could be improved collaboratively. I believe this is one of the points Lars is making. Best regards, -Karl [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-05/msg01855.html From: Karl Fogel To: Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 11:18:50 -0500 Message-ID: <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com>