From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2022 11:39:07 +1000 Message-ID: <87wndmwrrk.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <87r140yuof.fsf@gmail.com> <875yl9e7zm.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3549"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.27; emacs 28.1.50 Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 12 04:17:21 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o0DAH-0000h8-GV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 12 Jun 2022 04:17:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53222 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0DAF-0006FK-ME for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 22:17:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38004) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0D97-0004sR-2W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 22:16:10 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]:41550) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0D95-0001ww-Bu; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 22:16:08 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id e66so2623049pgc.8; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 19:16:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=zAY1sZ1PQR6OnlZyYiinsk+Y247aO/SvPHJ1aE9XLAU=; b=QyHgipCvgvi2EB/odTTXEcYBXSfyNUuR7tGzy7vVHK4ZjlXJ79tbND1RV7W7qauHQr YGZx3uMEAEZjznXYexWxLZxdcIdAg+InlTeJlG98vFP3ZoLpfSKgvInegaP9ZwSaPFBp mR6grQairZodErYdZbb5JvhJ1xfjiimyVF1HHfrJljL9EfTSrxAdIEusJA4zMwIaHpeM LHextPVSBCAH17ooq2DVNsV8JODwZYR7p3jLgdtzz3TjbaOdCkFJTpClg5UPR8JONAPP 6+Ys4MlKDxPrZp7lUR7nPZ8osBFBWNZSJegTvh/gClDxv31YRgI9jD+oKAXJTdvq+M2g W26Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=zAY1sZ1PQR6OnlZyYiinsk+Y247aO/SvPHJ1aE9XLAU=; b=aAyL9GBRqMY3SHzIW61d2YNxEzK78dXtmKZvZGWg8HzOw3X+eCH6nqxseY0labq9BF vAkaKqO33RzvMBoggVRp/qVfRpubFz49KMjKbfwBk8h/4EUiilwaustrkbKlf8f5yVl9 Ba1MNJUW+LtyQJhFFn24MCwEyO9SEiT6Ff4Tj3aC0JuxHeL02KwZWDv6plbZJzAG4z/s VS00EatSsaXm+BwJHxE6RZmWbP0rInfhXqjsPu3uFuVNPmhqCaIuinRTJykmaKaEExQt KSBsCJLihHnr9tFTurDpJBzW768EqxzjqSyQ6oU7YZYrJe05tv7ZLYQKVfz5dEeh6m51 6g+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532vSOIZeWUzsSkrTqVfvCrVJWuH1engR838JX0mdnCC+TF2BN06 zBTiqqCt1yQAoaJuP3XRA9N2WYP/MXc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwDI0P1/1Jvbqpd/8GaDn+45i62kNsn6SaBUrTwLU48FzJSYTN+e4i/F+aVWlctwrgJhBTuZQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:1a44:b0:510:a043:3b09 with SMTP id h4-20020a056a001a4400b00510a0433b09mr119672566pfv.62.1655000165510; Sat, 11 Jun 2022 19:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from dingbat (2001-44b8-31f2-bb00-63fa-329c-dbc6-d47e.static.ipv6.internode.on.net. [2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:63fa:329c:dbc6:d47e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u10-20020a17090a410a00b001df4c5cab51sm2151919pjf.15.2022.06.11.19.16.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 11 Jun 2022 19:16:05 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x52d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:291054 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > Making org mode syntax equivalent to texinfo syntax seems like a > > mistake to me. > > If this succeeds, it would be an important advance for the GNU system. > We would replace Texinfo with a much cleaner system, easier to use and > more maintainable. Not solely for Emacs, but for ALL our > documentation! > One key reason I worry about going down that road is that I suspect it would complicate org's syntax. Two key benefits of org mode is that the basic syntax is simple and it maps reasonably consistently acorss different output formats. However, this flexibility does come at a cost. To provide consistency across export formats, the basic formatting 'concepts' need to be somewhat 'generalised', which means at times you will loose some of the more advanced or sophisticated formatting power of some export back-ends. There are times, primarily where you need specialised or specific formatting in a particular format, where you need to drop down to that low level formatting 'language'. This is the org 'escape hatch', which provides a way to better leverage off the specific capabilities of a partricular back-end. For exmaple, you can embed latex in your document which will be added to your formated output when you generate a PDF/PS or *.tex output file. However, that formatting often won't work when you use the same source file to generate an HTML or Markdown or ODT version because there isn't a clear way to translate the latex to that format. As pointed out elswhere in this thread, org could support missing texinfo syntax using texinfo specific blocks. However, that isn't a great experience from an authoring perspective. It is fine if you only need to do it occasionally, but if you have to constantly add such blocks in order to get really well formatted texinfo output, it will become frustrating. Org also supports a powerful custom link format which could be used to add missing syntax elements, but I'm unsure on the usability of such an approach once you have a few such cusotm links. If we want to avoid this situation, the syntax would need to be added to the basic org syntax. However, that will also require all back-ends being able to interpret that syntax in some 'sane' manner, which would likley be considerable work and in some situations, could be extremely difficult to do consistently with good results. It would also add to the overall amount of syntax, potentially making it more complex and harder to learn. Org mode is a great mode, especially for general documentation and information management, todo and time management and to some extent, for literate programming and/or 'executable' documents, such as lab books or even some devops type applicaitons. Being able to have a single source document which can be used to generate 'reasonable' versions in different formats. You can even spend a bit of effort to customise things so that you can get some pretty consistent advanced formatting in some specific export formats. However, I often find when you need the advanced formatting power of a specific back-end, your often better just writing the document in that back-end as it tends to take less effort and results in cleaner source. The other side of th coin is the on-going development of texinfo. I have not written enough texinfo to really understand what the issues are which drive the desire to replace it with something else, such as org. I know there are some criticisms regarding output formats, but I also know there is on-going work to improve that situation. Is the right strategy to work on org mode so that it can replace texinfo or work on texinfo to address limitations (or both?)?