From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 21:13:55 +0800 Message-ID: <87wnb0ctf0.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ilmlluxq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilmlluxq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h725olz1.fsf@gnus.org> <8735dplo5d.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgfxlnw3.fsf@gnus.org> <87h725k8ze.fsf@yahoo.com> <87edx9ln65.fsf@gnus.org> <874jy5k80y.fsf@yahoo.com> <875yillm64.fsf@gnus.org> <87edx9ist0.fsf@yahoo.com> <874jy5gjoi.fsf@yahoo.com> <87wnb0bnmn.fsf@gnus.org> <87tu64ec1w.fsf@yahoo.com> <875yik8pb6.fsf@gnus.org> <87bksceaqu.fsf@yahoo.com> <87czcs79l8.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12298"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: Gregory Heytings , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 22 15:19:33 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ7L2-00033c-9q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 15:19:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42424 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ7L1-0001IX-7M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:19:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35758) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ7G1-0005bJ-FG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:14:21 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic312-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.204]:34929) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ7Fo-00086A-6w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:14:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661174044; bh=MvMHW1lbC1m7LloCGvl79LtjOQh5dI27TBYagq+SO6c=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=McVk5v60YCV2Fw4UzpdR8CJ00o4nL9iIcY/iOFuur1xnZ09yPmMG55r+G3RcjumLTxSayE9Kol5ULTSCPXFELoxwHWJQbzYO7PS312SxejdLvfpDx+quvKTT7InxF8bJU5Fq6WLpxpZeCn66yKFrc0Nq62ZU58XQDSVR2QECN4uN8rd87+/1mGegyRrt+szBowIcmiFujgGptfOE0Rc8uDp5dvV9MvbHmucOBRDmqo2OWnPH69xVV7sbb1cyfDkE74ZV1nG8/TC22SZd/UHRYg6bdF5EFnKnOLc0KAtuLnYlogYjFyE6cSm9fTrQf+xg/nU4kCTfzfFrLMsScuhIWw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661174044; bh=QGU2QJg+2zQj+mATl8AnWCprvEk8pOG5UDN6Mhjr4J6=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=H3bKcQSoAsGCOlhFkEJU9mb0tuVIjejnnMXBTeyo1kaQUyufKrj4R+ROmjhq0E68TmE12KkO7vYQwX5aJCuHoLuGAjpOp1o6CKEaIqg6WIKGJtoMnvVinIYTiaTnbiNn7pwyzeg7C41PgLQhYsInQGdJN/o+vwCVZVtwawd00jxn9iYE85UVOYFUQnuloncycIHXijvB7UOwd5Ph2GQgiSx4URtow0u/MeJM6dg3MGXi9cd2Wzs+1ODJPjrS5scHpe9h1mXNphVGy9zKqVYvssgXwlCqlCozo3adGlCgun3um0IBpQhRgxtmVykVVKJJr0mftQ9Y4am2PNQZPhv5mA== X-YMail-OSG: T6DFMNsVM1lIDMsczU5_Vu.AZdfGQynIu0U3tBK5N9hivC4XFcij0CuEeUpEpER M2pjB0WI0ebRph46vxnU.e2Q4Hz6rdArLnig8stUFktAd6czlgu0Eu0MdP2LG8acR3Prpfu78mLX T2QYNSkev.D5XkP38iZ99oER.bqkUJPL093x4ZTlmIhyAV9io2cF9n8P138OEw1gAguxocXW2Z1N xPl8ejaMasNeBQien_ZQ6_Eh6fgmuYnwGXe1xxHHFdHRfngpId_yIbYBCMXUZLQqF9dZ.XeuAw1y UnBcapnURP4xDnf7FlE2KmrKbQuN5VqiBXY0PAnGwbfg1j9L0nBOLxii98YRComoYxAD1YcdKSMu JVLqSPR.cmfUzWbVLUfmrA5itkmnMCVqfKlw7l9nDJNeHiePkTbZaw_DrqCy4ZGCsjoU8dDAHL0C nD6sU9cvOLGsz50mM7p_17KidZY4vu0u_KzYEqzLpsflpByq7Gt.yV5uW0GQgDe0y1Rr.lrRisQo JEPCmIR1hfwq9dtz96Qxgho22eiEh4Z4L8QyDsN1QWaJjLBePG2c1EXCTZvOAG4YTQbPc_YGxF6e yEtbtD0PeP.oww7QhmLiPbUxl1E7TnsDNFvQxbABuHgRqSFwYp8BM_tK6IRH490mzdonim2TcGyH 3aBzyPZ7RaWEn1jx6vBSbyuGo8M8r7ASMMhO98fdidpEwGIsi2LA4JmFWlK6PWKpfCtLdy6rLpBP R67Fjzo1TRHKKDV5.zCdxrVG9Jor1q9GGINtSICzBrQnsq_hrI7HhTAEdydk.NpgnAQdoXGiA_qV RDD.4itUSJGAqGZATLyFIfSzajt7obbcuyy.CuNieh X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 13:14:04 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--canary-production-sg3-6f58cd9b5-pcmsn (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f4ce29b135db5a628a7d60946f368c9c; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 13:14:01 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87czcs79l8.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon, 22 Aug 2022 14:21:07 +0200") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20560 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.191.204; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic312-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293807 Archived-At: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I feel like I'm repeating myself here a lot now. So to recap: > > 1) The crash under a Gtk build should be fixed -- in any case, no matter > what else we do. If that means disabling XInput 2 under Gtk, that's fine. It's not fine. Because once that happens, people will stop using the XInput 2 build (since it will no longer be the default), and it will simply rot like xwidgets, XEmbed, child frames, colormapped display support. Then, at some point, the GTK developers will delete the core input support like they have been threatening to for a while and leave us with no option but the now-non-working XI2 build. Which is why XInput 2 should stay on. GTK -- off. > 2) I think we should default to not using a toolkit. But the issues in > 1-5) I delineated must be fixed first. (This isn't a discussion -- I'm > stating a requisite.) Those problems are never going to be solved with our manpower, so we might as well stop dreaming and pick something that already exists (and for obvious reasons GTK is not an option -- that one crash is simply one out of many.) As I said, the only place a "no-toolkit" build exists is under X, and even there several very old pieces of code are being used to piece together a toolkit. And as you've probably noticed, even that code doesn't work very well, since most of the complicated modern toolkit behavior is not present. Everything from mouse-over popups in menus to font sets and internationalized text display. Not even Microsoft can afford to maintain their own toolkit for VS Code. They use a web browser, which is a terrible idea that should never be let near Emacs. > (And did you get my off-list email, or did it go to a spam bucket > again?) The latter. Here, I'm getting mail delivered two or three times from lists.gnu.org.