From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn?= Bidar Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: feature/package-vc has been merged Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 01:40:33 +0200 Message-ID: <87wn83itn2.fsf@thaodan.de> References: <164484721900.31751.1453162457552427931@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <83k0492u5i.fsf@gnu.org> <87fsew8g18.fsf@posteo.net> <83mt941cyd.fsf@gnu.org> <87fsewp0ec.fsf@posteo.net> <837d0814c9.fsf@gnu.org> <878rkooz1o.fsf@posteo.net> <831qqg1306.fsf@gnu.org> <874jvcowzm.fsf@posteo.net> <83y1soypvx.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1song5x.fsf@posteo.net> <83v8nsyof7.fsf@gnu.org> <87leoond7l.fsf@posteo.net> <87mt90tyns.fsf@thaodan.de> <87o7tgfw4m.fsf@posteo.net> <87eductx0x.fsf@thaodan.de> <871qqcfs9y.fsf@posteo.net> <875yfotn63.fsf@thaodan.de> <87pmdvsx2g.fsf@thaodan.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12489"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Philip Kaludercic , Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 10 07:29:47 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ot14N-00036U-L5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Nov 2022 07:29:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ot10c-0002LV-Va; Thu, 10 Nov 2022 01:25:55 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1osugQ-0000g1-LH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Nov 2022 18:40:38 -0500 Original-Received: from thaodan.de ([185.216.177.71]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1osugO-00024O-Nc; Wed, 09 Nov 2022 18:40:38 -0500 Original-Received: from odin (dsl-trebng12-b04885-76.dhcp.inet.fi [176.72.133.76]) by thaodan.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EFE97D08D5C; Thu, 10 Nov 2022 01:40:33 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=thaodan.de; s=mail; t=1668037234; bh=SYMfAhIUmqK6rixhbHzIIG8SfT027buKU0C32MOD6Ec=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=yX4jGh5Nkqhln27umbAlLBGM8882n+JG1rVOt+WzzGJSK+F9MP5zUDSjSIF6c8dfF TWqNkNC1DBH5O8yghkdMzgr8Vp/eTo737R2uRzLUzPBmGxcrfvK35ExRqX5bX6af5C xh51GwTzkLe0w7lXkKKDvBflaGOvbl42pRJA6ll86uQYcHJpCJTZ7P6vZPTj+a90pe m9Oq3IEX+rYCfpskUf/bI52rpAdQkkGSkCHpveqdI/fJZWnhDqFDCLvP4vzVQ7Y7e1 5nZ7k6WfaJIKut6U3zlFN54g5SOflgCsVfsiaYMHfBunNfw9x0f0V0BvvYhBHK7ieL 6tfTJ89lBCv86HPQFE44DUW77n1UxsWONV+u4rJBW90aonkkRgj/iXep4pC3yzvQk7 hj7Lb9V2Z9aU4Cp4n58gVIelLJ7Cen5J99elGYj2lIOBtBGOCpCM4/1jeeKbgMcPGQ /50rq7AyvmJmqxP3PoJWzSvHfSKu/dgYp5hCL0RPdHPy4yC7zqfJ9uBwlPMMURKVA9 8GkbJhtLiXSouNKlhfQs2N5lGQA11IiCJN43Gs69YnCRKgpy/un4VCzs3BILuh2wgx 0+SkVG10WlLq8KIT4rjF1XKX7rwHPS+7D38hJHif28L4nh/s4ity7FrZz0k52q/XWE iTZVJHcEziBU1++PsPC1K704= In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:10:37 -0500") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.216.177.71; envelope-from=bjorn.bidar@thaodan.de; helo=thaodan.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 01:25:52 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299456 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: >> The side effect of that process is that there's no standartized way for >> these packages to require native modules is that building those packages >> in build systems isn't standartized, these packages have to be convinced >> to not build binaries while Emacs run but take the prebuild binaries >> from the package manager. > > I'm not completely sure I understand to what you're alluding, but indeed > it causes extra work for things like Debian where they would benefit > from having a standard way to build (and locate) the extra artifacts > like the module of `pdf-tools`. > > Currently packages like `pdf-tools` and `libpq` are fairly unusual but > I'd encourage the development of a standardized way to handle them. > Then Debian packagers would be able to take advantage of it. I'm exactly talking about you reference but with addition that there's no standard load-path for native modules. Regular lisp modules which are unless native compilation is used interpreted or byte compiled go to /usr/share. But native modules should go to /usr/lib/emacs/site-lisp or something similar in name. But Emacs doesn't configure a load path for such packages by default. >>> I'm hoping that we'll develop a "standard" way to do it in the form of >>> some ELisp function/macro so that `pdf-tools`, `libpq`, etc... can >>> simply include a line or two of ELisp code which says how to compile >>> their artifact (possibly just running `make`, or `ninja`, ...). >> I'm not sure if that is always the best solution, > > But that's what we can get fairly easily without disruption :-) > >> maybe Melpa isn't the best place such packages. > > Not sure what Melpa has to do with this, but if you mean the whole of > the ELPA infrastructure, then I think this is largely irrelevant: ELPA > is popular and users do want to install `pdf-tools` via `M-x > package-install`, so while there may be a better solution, we still need > to solve this problem. Melpa probably doesn't have anything directly to do with it but a lot of packages that use native modules came from their but that has probably other reasons such as not assigning the copyright to the fsf. >> But just don't run them inside Emacs itself and not synchronously. > > I lost you here. I have no idea what "them" refers to. Any process that involves package-vc by it building the package or fetching their sources. Br, Bj=C3=B6rn.