Re: can't turn off font-lock

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Richard Stallman]

    And invoke:
    M-x eval-expression RET (global-font-lock-mode 0) RET

    And now I try a few commands:
    C-h a font-lock RET             (a *Help* buffer)
    M-x grep RET e /etc/issue RET   (grep to get a couple matches)
    M-x shell RET pwd RET

    In all cases, I observe that fontification is happening.  Argh!
    E.g., the "pwd" is highlighted, the grep matches and filenames are
    highlighted, the *Help* buffer is fancily formatted.

I think these cases are different.  I do not observe any fontification
in M-x shell.  In M-x grep, I do observe it, but M-x font-lock-mode
turns it off.  (I wonder why it was on.)

In C-h a font-lock RET, I see faces regardless of whether Font-Lock
mode is enabled.

All that is in the trunk.

Can someone please debug these problems, then ack?

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Stefan Monnier]

> I think these cases are different.  I do not observe any fontification
> in M-x shell.  In M-x grep, I do observe it, but M-x font-lock-mode
> turns it off.  (I wonder why it was on.)

Because grep relies on compilation-mode, which uses font-lock to do its
work, so it forcefully enables font-lock.


        Stefan

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Karl Berry]

    I do not observe any fontification in M-x shell.

Maybe I am using the wrong word, but when I do this:

$ emacs -q --no-site 
M-x eval-expression RET (global-font-lock-mode 0) RET
M-x shell RET pwd RET

I most definitely do observe fontish things happening:
- my shell prompt is in a turquoise color.
- after typing a command (say, "pwd") and hitting RET,
  the command is emboldened.

I see analogous output in -nw mode.

Thanks,
karl

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Karl Berry]

    rms> In M-x grep, I do observe it, but M-x font-lock-mode turns it off.

I've made various attempts at turning off font-lock in compile/grep
hooks without success.  If someone knows a recipe that works, please
inform.

    monnier> Because grep relies on compilation-mode, which uses
    font-lock to do its work, so it forcefully enables font-lock.

Am I to infer that M-x compile and M-x grep don't work without
fontification/faces (sorry, I don't understand the difference) any more?
If so, this should be mentioned somehow in the Font Lock node -- that
(global-font-lock-mode 0) doesn't turn off everything.  And in fact
there's no way of predicting what it does and doesn't turn off.

(Also, if so, I guess I'll have to write my own versions, since I find
faces badly and uselessly distracting, especially in -nw mode.  Maybe I
am the only person in the world this is true for.  Sigh.)

karl

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Stefan Monnier]

> (Also, if so, I guess I'll have to write my own versions,

You may be better off changing to not use font-lock, and then provide
a patch for it: I'd consider it as a bug-fix.

> since I find faces badly and uselessly distracting, especially in -nw
> mode.  Maybe I am the only person in the world this is true for.  Sigh.)

I'm sure you're not the only person.  I do like font-lock, but customize
most faces to look like `default' because I find them annoying/useless
(e.g. font-lock-keyword-face).


        Stefan

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   (Also, if so, I guess I'll have to write my own versions, since I find
   faces badly and uselessly distracting, especially in -nw mode.  Maybe I
   am the only person in the world this is true for.  Sigh.)

FWIW, I find this also annoying when using -nw.  One would expect that
disabling font-lock would disable font-lock...

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Karl Berry]

    You may be better off changing to not use font-lock, and then provide
    a patch for it: I'd consider it as a bug-fix.

Well, these functions never relied on font-lock before 22.1, so I hope
there was some excellent reason for going to all the trouble of
implementing it that way.  Now going to even more trouble to unimplement
it seems painful, although I don't expect we can just revert, either.
Sigh.

    most faces to look like `default' because I find them annoying/useless

Maybe the defaults should be less fancy.  But that's a different discussion.

    (e.g. font-lock-keyword-face).

I have a lot of trouble figuring out the face names to disable; it takes
me major research to get from output in some non-default face in some
buffer back to the actual face-symbol to disable.  (This is why I was
devoutly hoping that "(global-font-lock-mode 0)" would just work.)

Eli's mention of "C-u C-x =" is very helpful, I had missed that in the
manual.  When I run it in the filenames in the grep output (after -nw
this time), I see the face listed as "(compilation-info underline
underline)".  And unfortunately, I have no idea how to translate that
into a face name to disable without delving into the sources, which is
what I was doing anyway.  Oh well.  Is there a better way?

Meanwhile, I have also never been able to figure out how to disable an
individual face (and could find no documentation about it, either).  I
gather I'm supposed to set whatever-face-symbol to 'default or "default"
or something?  Can you show me how you do it, please?

(For example, it occurred to me that another way to achieve my faceless
desires would be to somehow define "bold", "italic", and so on to all
map to "default".  No luck with anything I tried in that direction,
either.)

Thanks,
Karl

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Karl Berry]

> I most definitely do observe fontish things happening:

I'm sorry, my mistake.  I was mistakenly invoking a prior version of Emacs.
With 22.1, I don't see any fontification in M-x shell after
(global-font-lock-mode 0).  Yay.

I did notice another place where it happens in 22.1, though: a simple
M-x shows the "M-x " prompt in blue (in emacs-under-x), likewise other
prompts (e.g., "Eval: " after M-x eval-expression RET).

Thanks,
karl

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Andreas Schwab]

karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry) writes:

> Eli's mention of "C-u C-x =" is very helpful, I had missed that in the
> manual.  When I run it in the filenames in the grep output (after -nw
> this time), I see the face listed as "(compilation-info underline
> underline)".  And unfortunately, I have no idea how to translate that
> into a face name to disable without delving into the sources, which is
> what I was doing anyway.  Oh well.  Is there a better way?

Just click on it.

> Meanwhile, I have also never been able to figure out how to disable an
> individual face (and could find no documentation about it, either).  I
> gather I'm supposed to set whatever-face-symbol to 'default or "default"
> or something?  Can you show me how you do it, please?

M-x customize-face RET

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Juri Linkov]

> Meanwhile, I have also never been able to figure out how to disable an
> individual face (and could find no documentation about it, either).  I
> gather I'm supposed to set whatever-face-symbol to 'default or "default"
> or something?  Can you show me how you do it, please?

You can try this code to disable face attributes of all faces:

  (mapc (lambda (face) (modify-face face)) (face-list))

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:54:30 -0500
> From: karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> I did notice another place where it happens in 22.1, though: a simple
> M-x shows the "M-x " prompt in blue (in emacs-under-x), likewise other
> prompts (e.g., "Eval: " after M-x eval-expression RET).

That's a face called `minibuffer-prompt'; customize it to be as
`default', if you don't want to see it.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:54:01 -0500
> From: karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
> Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Eli's mention of "C-u C-x =" is very helpful, I had missed that in the
> manual.  When I run it in the filenames in the grep output (after -nw
> this time), I see the face listed as "(compilation-info underline
> underline)".  And unfortunately, I have no idea how to translate that
> into a face name to disable without delving into the sources, which is
> what I was doing anyway.  Oh well.  Is there a better way?

Yes: go to the face name and press RET.  You will be presented with
the Custom buffer where you can customize this face.

The face name, btw, is the first part: `compilation-info'.

> Meanwhile, I have also never been able to figure out how to disable an
> individual face (and could find no documentation about it, either).  I
> gather I'm supposed to set whatever-face-symbol to 'default or "default"
> or something?  Can you show me how you do it, please?

One way is to use defface to have the face inherit from `default'.
See the examples in the various *.el files (search for ":inherit").

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de>
> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:15:00 +0200
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, rms@gnu.org
> 
> karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry) writes:
> 
> > Eli's mention of "C-u C-x =" is very helpful, I had missed that in the
> > manual.  When I run it in the filenames in the grep output (after -nw
> > this time), I see the face listed as "(compilation-info underline
> > underline)".  And unfortunately, I have no idea how to translate that
> > into a face name to disable without delving into the sources, which is
> > what I was doing anyway.  Oh well.  Is there a better way?
> 
> Just click on it.

Or type RET with point on the face's name.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Richard Stallman]

    Maybe I am using the wrong word, but when I do this:

    $ emacs -q --no-site 
    M-x eval-expression RET (global-font-lock-mode 0) RET
    M-x shell RET pwd RET

    I most definitely do observe fontish things happening:
    - my shell prompt is in a turquoise color.
    - after typing a command (say, "pwd") and hitting RET,
      the command is emboldened.

If someone can reproduce it, he can investigate how it happens.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Richard Stallman]

    I did notice another place where it happens in 22.1, though: a simple
    M-x shows the "M-x " prompt in blue (in emacs-under-x), likewise other
    prompts (e.g., "Eval: " after M-x eval-expression RET).

That is not font-lock mode.  Emacs uses a different face for the prompt.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Richard Stallman]

    Meanwhile, I have also never been able to figure out how to disable an
    individual face (and could find no documentation about it, either).  I
    gather I'm supposed to set whatever-face-symbol to 'default or "default"
    or something?  Can you show me how you do it, please?

This is documented in the Emacs manual.  There are entire sections on faces.
Did you read them?

    (For example, it occurred to me that another way to achieve my faceless
    desires would be to somehow define "bold", "italic", and so on to all
    map to "default".  No luck with anything I tried in that direction,
    either.)

That is a very bad idea for how to turn off font lock.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Richard Stallman]

    Because grep relies on compilation-mode, which uses font-lock to do its
    work, so it forcefully enables font-lock.

It seems like a bug for it to work this way.

What it ought to do is enable Font Lock in an internal way, so it will
put on font-lock-face properties.  These properties should be created
regardless of whether Font Lock mode is enabled, but they should
only affect display when Font Lock mode is enabled.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:54:01 -0500
> From: karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
> Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Eli's mention of "C-u C-x =" is very helpful, I had missed that in the
> manual.

Btw, how did you search for it in the manual?  Perhaps indexing needs
improvement.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Karl Berry]

      (mapc (lambda (face) (modify-face face)) (face-list))

Thanks Juri, that's very helpful.  I discovered I don't really want mode
line faces disabled :), so I'm playing with some conditions, but that's
a detail.  And it has to be run after packages get loaded, since of
course it can't disable faces that don't exist yet.  Another detail.  At
least now I know how to shut them off.

Karl

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Juri Linkov]

>       (mapc (lambda (face) (modify-face face)) (face-list))
>
> Thanks Juri, that's very helpful.  I discovered I don't really want mode
> line faces disabled :), so I'm playing with some conditions, but that's
> a detail.  And it has to be run after packages get loaded, since of
> course it can't disable faces that don't exist yet.  Another detail.  At
> least now I know how to shut them off.

I use the following trick to post-process faces immediately after they
get created.  I also modified this code to not reset mode line faces:

(defun my-faces-fix (&optional frame)
  "Fix defined faces."
  (interactive)
  ;; Check if this function is called by `custom-define-hook' from
  ;; `custom-declare-face' where the variable `face' is bound locally.
  (when (boundp 'face)
    (dolist (face (face-list))
      (unless (memq face '(mode-line mode-line-highlight mode-line-inactive))
        ;; Reset all face attributes
        (modify-face face)))))

;; 1. Fix existing faces
(let ((face t)) (my-faces-fix))

;; 2. Call `my-faces-fix' every time some new face gets defined
(add-to-list 'custom-define-hook 'my-faces-fix)

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Karl Berry]

    That is not font-lock mode.  Emacs uses a different face for the prompt.

>From a user's point of view, I can say that this apparently-crucial
distinction between font-lock faces and non-font-lock faces is utterly
obscure (I'll send a separate msg about that), and it just seems weird
that (global-font-lock-mode 0) doesn't turn off everything.  

If you feel it's inappropriate for (global-font-lock-mode 0) to turn off
such things, then how about another feature that turns off all these
colorizations and such things?  As in, (black-and-white-emacs) ...

As I wrote in other msgs, it is quite painful to discover and turn off
all the face names individually.  (E.g., C-u C-x = isn't usable with
minibuffer text, mode lines, etc.)

If this isn't going to happen, then I suggest adding something to the
Font Lock node saying that it does not affect all faces.

karl

P.S. I also noticed that the startup screen and *scratch* buffer text are
colorized, although I was turning off font-lock on the cmd line:
  emacs-22.1 -q --no-site --eval "(global-font-lock-mode 0)"
The mode lines also use gray rather than black and white.
(Not that these particular things are very important to me.)

I imagine these are more instances of non-font-lock faces.  Just
mentioning it for the archives.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Karl Berry]

About documentation and font-lock vs non-font-lock faces.

For instance, the third paragraph of the Faces node says this:

     Emacs uses faces automatically for highlighting, through the work of
  Font Lock mode.

This statement is one of the reasons why I conflated Faces and Font Lock
in the first place.  To me, making the minibuffer text appear in blue,
or the mode line in some kind of reverse video, or grep hits in yellow,
is "highlighting".  Everything that isn't normal text was "highlighting",
in my naive understanding.  Oh well.

I can suggest explicitly stating something like "Emacs also uses faces
in other circumstances, not related to Font Lock".

Also, that node's section title is "Using Multiple Typefaces".  This
also misled me.  Emacs' faces are hardly the same as typographic
typefaces; they are at least as much about, well, highlighting (via bold
or underline or whatever), as about choosing Times Roman
vs. Helvetica.  I suggest that simply "Faces" would be a less misleading
name.  Anything that doesn't use the word "Typeface" would be an
improvement, IMHO.

k

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Stefan Monnier]

> This statement is one of the reasons why I conflated Faces and Font Lock
> in the first place.

The intention in Emacs-22 is indeed to conflate the two, but it hasn;t been
done consistently.


        Stefan

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:31:08 -0500
> From: karl@freefriends.org (Karl Berry)
> 
> As I wrote in other msgs, it is quite painful to discover and turn off
> all the face names individually.  (E.g., C-u C-x = isn't usable with
> minibuffer text, mode lines, etc.)

Did you actually try to use "C-u C-x =" in the minibuffer?  It works
for me.

But I agree that discovering the faces is a job best avoided.

> If you feel it's inappropriate for (global-font-lock-mode 0) to turn off
> such things, then how about another feature that turns off all these
> colorizations and such things?  As in, (black-and-white-emacs) ...

I think it makes a lot of sense to have either global-font-lock-mode
turn off all faces (perhaps with minor exceptions, like mode line and
fringe?) or to have another option to do that in one go.

> P.S. I also noticed that the startup screen and *scratch* buffer text are
> colorized, although I was turning off font-lock on the cmd line:
>   emacs-22.1 -q --no-site --eval "(global-font-lock-mode 0)"

Try doing that in one of the hooks defined by startup.el, it could be
that the command-line args are processed too late for them to have any
effect on the initial display.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Richard Stallman]

    > This statement is one of the reasons why I conflated Faces and Font Lock
    > in the first place.

    The intention in Emacs-22 is indeed to conflate the two, but it hasn;t been
    done consistently.

That's true for highlighting of buffers due to major modes, but there
are other kinds of highlighting in Emacs.  For instance, of minibuffer
prompts, and Custom buffers.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Richard Stallman]

This should make it clearer.  Thanks.

  Most major modes assign faces to the text automatically through the
work of Font Lock mode.  @xref{Font Lock}, for more information about
Font Lock mode and syntactic highlighting.  You can print the current
buffer with the highlighting that appears on your screen using the
command @code{ps-print-buffer-with-faces}.  @xref{PostScript}.

Re: can't turn off font-lock

[Richard Stallman]

    >From a user's point of view, I can say that this apparently-crucial
    distinction between font-lock faces and non-font-lock faces is utterly
    obscure (I'll send a separate msg about that), and it just seems weird
    that (global-font-lock-mode 0) doesn't turn off everything.  

I do not want to eliminate the possibility of highlighting under
explicit program control.  For instance, it makes no sense to turn off
the faces in a Custom buffer.

    If this isn't going to happen, then I suggest adding something to the
    Font Lock node saying that it does not affect all faces.

I don't see anything which suggests it does.  Where did you get that
mistaken idea?  If you show me some text which seems to suggest it,
I can clarify that text.