From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: bidi-display-reordering is now non-nil by default Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:18:14 +0200 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87vctyahcp.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <4E48D309.6050503@acdlabs.ru> <83hb5jujjs.fsf@gnu.org> <874o1j10zv.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1313420350 18424 80.91.229.12 (15 Aug 2011 14:59:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:59:10 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 15 16:59:03 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qsyd4-0004xy-Ep for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:59:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60852 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qsyd4-0005ik-4A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:59:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:48345) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qsxzw-00005S-V2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:18:37 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qsxzu-0004d7-3M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:18:36 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:48651) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qsxzt-0004cx-QD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:18:34 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qsxzs-0003Pg-Gi for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:18:32 +0200 Original-Received: from p508ed573.dip.t-dialin.net ([80.142.213.115]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:18:32 +0200 Original-Received: from dak by p508ed573.dip.t-dialin.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:18:32 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 41 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: p508ed573.dip.t-dialin.net X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:LwI8WcwzOyz/2mLFZxQueHRMy0k= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:143245 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: >> Emacs should really avoid formatting things with L2R marks that are not >> actually required. > > And then > >> Is there a reason nobody responded to my repeated proposal to let >> `format' deal with inserting L2R marks? > > AFAICT these two are contradictory. If "format" creates a pure L2R string, it will not insert directional marks. That is rather simple. When it puts stuff together that would make cause changes of directionality from inside a field to outside, it would insert marks to avoid this. So format("%sx", v) would not be equivalent to concat(v, "x"). Something like format("%\\sx", v) might: one would try to make some modifier for "don't insert directional marks". > To only insert them when they are really needed, we need additional > hints that only a human can give. To get a hit rate of 100%, sure, nothing but human intervention will do. But if the point is to get behavior that is rather close to optimal without regressions for L2R texts and without human intervention everywhere, addressing format is going to give a good start. Where is the sense in fields like %-10.10s" if format is going to cut off a directional mark the user added for proper display? If format is the entity inserting the mark in the first place, at least this will go less wrong. > But in any case, the bidi support in Emacs-24.1 is just a first step. > Clearly we'll need more work to make it work well. Nothing wrong with that. I'd like to avoid a situation where we'll need to backpaddle to make it work well. -- David Kastrup