From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Lisp's future Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 22:22:26 +0900 Message-ID: <87vbnllb71.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87d2ahm3nw.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <871tqneyvl.fsf@netris.org> <87zjd9swfj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87oatnqpml.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <874mvdrj45.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20141009044917.GA19957@fencepost.gnu.org> <83lhopisfr.fsf@gnu.org> <87ppe1pldu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8761ft5wpo.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83k349b0vj.fsf@gnu.org> <83bnph96kh.fsf@gnu.org> <87ppdwo7ll.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <543BE7CB.9040801@cs.ucla.edu> <87egubopls.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87bnpfyjaf.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87a94zoo57.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83h9z77p7d.fsf@gnu.org> <8761fnnne9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <543D8186.9000101@cs.ucla.edu> <87mw8ym3no.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <543E0BFD.4020700@cs.ucla.edu> <878ukhn6n3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83fvep665h.fsf@gnu.org> <877g01murc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83bnpd5x90.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1413379399 22061 80.91.229.3 (15 Oct 2014 13:23:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 13:23:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 15 15:23:12 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XeOXn-0006FL-DJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 15:23:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44747 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XeOXm-0000BK-S1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:23:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42425) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XeOXQ-00006S-55 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:22:55 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XeOXI-0006UO-MM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:22:48 -0400 Original-Received: from shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.161]:50867) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XeOX8-0006Ny-QE; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:22:31 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5AB41C392A; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 22:22:26 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D9CB51A2C6C; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 22:22:26 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <83bnpd5x90.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" acf1c26e3019 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.161 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:175407 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > utf-8-emacs is a private encoding used and understood by Emacs > > > alone, so encoding Emacs files in that would make them unusable > > > (unsearchable, unreadable, etc.) with anything but Emacs. > > > > And who in the world would care? > > Those who use Grep etc. outside of Emacs. Well, no, because only those with a very special and very obsolete environment would be able to search for those few characters using grep, if they don't have Emacs. The rest of the characters are in Unicode, so can be searched as usual using the UTF-8 representation. > > My argument is that Emacs is alone in choosing this particular > > "reasonable way to support encodings" > > What other programs you are aware of that cover such a large set of > scripts and languages no matter what is the user locale? With Unicode support, *all of them*. (Note: I didn't change from encodings to "scripts and languages", you did.) Of course, very few handle all of the *character encodings* that Emacs does, but iconv and recode come close, or perhaps even exceed Emacs in some areas. Those programs, plus a little shell (oops, you're on Windows, OK, *Python*), and you can do 99.44% of what Emacs can do as far as handling file coding. True, Emacs is a little more convenient in handling file coding, but the majority of folks evidently think that is far outweighed by the inconvenience of Emacs itself. > My point is that those other projects need to learn from Emacs first. Could be you're right, but sadly, I doubt anyone is going to bother.