From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:34:31 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <87vblqrziw.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417786525 9211 80.91.229.3 (5 Dec 2014 13:35:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 13:35:25 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 05 14:35:18 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwt2T-0002EE-Pr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:35:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50448 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwt2T-0005pQ-BW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 08:35:17 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36359) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwt21-0005pA-6X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 08:34:54 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwt1w-0000iS-0v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 08:34:49 -0500 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:34390) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwt1v-0000i2-Jn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 08:34:43 -0500 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwt1u-0001yF-Gk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:34:42 +0100 Original-Received: from x2f51fab.dyn.telefonica.de ([2.245.31.171]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:34:42 +0100 Original-Received: from dak by x2f51fab.dyn.telefonica.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:34:42 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 501 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: x2f51fab.dyn.telefonica.de X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:l8ufW9LdxhcVH8ASvQ2YHXrXdLQ= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:178918 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain "Eric S. Raymond" writes: > The positioning problem is that info/Texinfo makes us look like a > steam-powered archaic joke to younger developers. Uh, this is the Emacs developer list. Emacs' _principal_ appeal is to the steampunk culture of information technology. > Text-only presentation with obtrusive links and a complex command set > for a viewer that's *not a web browser*? In 2014? Really? Can it be that you lost contact with Texinfo some time ago already? Here is how my info page for the current LilyPond manual looks in Emacs: --=-=-= Content-Type: image/png Content-Disposition: inline; filename=lilypond-info-sample.png Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAn4AAAOEBAMAAADNgCGYAAAAMFBMVEUHCAQXHGRVGRcsJECLMx1X VU8yYMJfmN7Nk1Wan6DBw7+N0vX2yG7l6uj67Lr9//wgEoiOAAAAAWJLR0QAiAUdSAAAAAlwSFlz AAALEwAACxMBAJqcGAAAAAd0SU1FB94MBQw5BvgzGycAAAAZdEVYdENvbW1lbnQAQ3JlYXRlZCB3 aXRoIEdJTVBXgQ4XAAAgAElEQVR42u29X2wbV5roWYZAC7Jh5PUmHPZlw8jVZojGNno78HUTWTiJ I05GyILXRrVXNgy9yYNWaL5cOIFjmZT/KFj0i5BpZVry+krwWm5bhlvAPDQMQ1KZVq4bi3kxZmPF 0VgqXKrUk755yYPkUARZZ7/vnFP/yKJEkZItkd/pdop16vyrn77z76vvnKOo5OpxyvAII1eruzOs DBOF2l1xWCHxq0sAlVGCUIf7lvjV5daIH/EjfsSP+JFraH7Lp9wX4reZQZbaNU38anbmiZE7J3Ti t5HLq6eA0tBnyyf0vKpOw/0JfRz+LacAW9/qKTavdulwGYdwr3jaqxf1ncfvapfat8yVQqm1rqET 7Kp6fFEdPqF/vqgOzZwCcFdVFTEODaupl1qwVVXt9ng8PTl+esfxM1Vt+dTyiedq6mpfsfjsxKKa Ki6e0Ivmqdz5qzOnnp7iAZ6eYvrC1b5XzE9Vdx6/Agge8ANKV/ug/p54flwHpuo189SytjwN4ArH 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Guess which variant is much much much more responsive to use when using a standard HTML browser on the HTML variant (installed locally, of course) as compared to using Emacs on the info version. Guess which variant is integrated into the normal workflow much better. Try searching the index in HTML. That's so much worse it is not even funny. And the LilyPond manual is actually rather good for an HTML based manual. > The capability problem is that the younger developers are objectively > right to laugh. Because these resources are not rendered to Web, Texinfo has an HTML backend. The LilyPond manuals are generated in that manner. Pretty much every GNU project offering its Texinfo based documentation online also offers an HTML version, typically both as a single-file HTML version as well as a distributed version. For about the last 20 years or so. Here is the Emacs version: . If you compare it to the LilyPond version, you'll find that the Emacs version a) does not make use of a lot of images (any at all?) b) looks rather bland Both are (obviously) not shortcomings of Texinfo as such, but of the default workflows, styles and tools. For example: why can't I dump menu structures and buffers and example frames suitable for Texinfo graphics right from within Emacs? > The EmacsWiki is a valiant stab at fixing part of the problem, but its > utility is severely damaged by the fact that it can't readily link > inwards to the stuff carried in the distribution. Of course you can link to the Emacs info manuals in HTML form. > The solution must be partly a change in mechanism and partly a change > in policy and attitude. The change in technology is the simple part; > info and Texinfo must die. They must be replaced with a common format > for documentation masters that is Web-friendly, and by Web > presentation. You are confusing the documentation source (Texinfo) with one target format (HTML). HTML is not a reasonable format for authoring documentation, just like Info isn't. Texinfo, in contrast, is. And writing Texinfo is well-supported in Emacs. I actually don't know any other structured high-level documentation format that can reasonably be edited in plain text form and converted into HTML using free tools. Even if you care only for the HTML backend, you won't magically be able to cater for it without having some human-writable frontend. And there is nothing wrong with using Texinfo for that. > I have discussed this with RMS and, pending my ability to actually > write proper translation tools, we have agreed on asciidoc as a new > master format. This is actually an awful idea as no reliable and maintained toolchains, definitions, and Emacs editing modes for it exist and it is quite less expressive than Texinfo. > This is what should replace Texinfo and the gallimaufry of ad-hoc text > files like /etc/CONTRIBUTE and the admin/notes stuff. Files like /etc/CONTRIBUTE, if needed in multiple formats, can be produced from Texinfo files using the ASCII backend. AUCTeX does that for files like README, INSTALL, PROBLEMS and others that are, in the fully marked-up version, included in the Texinfo manuals as well. > The policy part of the job will in some ways be more difficult because > the requirements are harder to define. We need to change the way we > think about Emacs's documentation; we need to concieve and organize it > as a single, coherent, richly linked hypertext that renders to HTML as > its major target. This may mean giving up on some features supporting > rendering to print manuals; I'm not sure yet. If so, it's time to bite > that bullet. I disagree. Really. Take a look at the documentation of LilyPond, > possibly installing the full Info version as well and experiment with it. You can, of course, browse the web-based documentation also. Every single bit of it, including _all_ the web pages (not just the manuals) and their translations, is written and maintained in Texinfo. > I'm willing to take on the tools end, but I can't do it all. Someone > needs to take ownership of the policy/organization end of the > documentation problem. Will any of the people righly complaining about > this step up? I don't see that you'll magically get more people involved than those maintaining Texinfo, and your basic proposal is not even in any way related to HTML (which is available already) but rather to replacing the source format of Texinfo with AsciiDoc, a format that does not distinguish logical and physical markup, is its own plain-text output format and thus is unsuitable for providing all the information that may be relevant for _any_ of the backends you are likely to use with it. It't not even "more hip" or "less steampunk" than Texinfo: its only major use known to me is as the documentation system of Git. And you need particular versions of its toolchain to even compile all the documentation of Git last time I looked. So before panicking into some purportedly newfangled direction, it would make proper sense making better use of our existing tools. -- David Kastrup --=-=-=--