From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juri Linkov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On language-dependent defaults for character-folding Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 02:31:21 +0200 Organization: LINKOV.NET Message-ID: <87vb58cq7a.fsf@mail.linkov.net> References: <87y4adzcia.fsf@gnus.org> <83twl0k1k5.fsf@gnu.org> <83k2lvi99c.fsf@gnu.org> <83oab6gfiw.fsf@gnu.org> <878u29x8vl.fsf@fastmail.fm> <83ziuncpch.fsf@gnu.org> <83fuwecztu.fsf@gnu.org> <83bn72cxfa.fsf@gnu.org> <83si0cakvf.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1456706221 1223 80.91.229.3 (29 Feb 2016 00:37:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 00:37:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, joostkremers@fastmail.fm, lokedhs@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , larsi@gnus.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 29 01:36:51 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aaBpS-0005QE-T9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 29 Feb 2016 01:36:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33108 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aaBpS-0000Hd-D4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 19:36:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40470) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aaBpA-0000HN-Rv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 19:36:33 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aaBp9-0005IG-SL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 19:36:32 -0500 Original-Received: from sub3.mail.dreamhost.com ([69.163.253.7]:50836 helo=homiemail-a22.g.dreamhost.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aaBp4-0005Bj-6u; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 19:36:26 -0500 Original-Received: from homiemail-a22.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a22.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEAB8114065; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 16:36:24 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from localhost.linkov.net (82.131.112.51.cable.starman.ee [82.131.112.51]) (Authenticated sender: jurta@jurta.org) by homiemail-a22.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2398A114060; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 16:36:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (John Wiegley's message of "Sun, 28 Feb 2016 14:59:24 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.91 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (no timestamps) [generic] X-Received-From: 69.163.253.7 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:200795 Archived-At: >>>>>> Drew Adams writes: > >> What seems clear to me for Emacs 25.1 is that the feature should be in= cluded >> AND that it should be simple to both (1) customize the default behavio= r for >> a given user (i.e., what behavior search starts with, a la >> `case-fold-search') and (2) toggle the behavior on the fly, during Ise= arch. > > I think Drew has summarized perfectly what I would like to see happen. = In > addition, I'd add one more item: Once 25.1 is released, I (or another) = will > write a blog article publicizing this feature and touting its benefits,= in > order to encourage people to try it out and discover how useful it can = be. > > However, making it a default in 25.1 is something I am simply not comfo= rtable > doing, giving the diversity of opinion on this list, plus my own misgiv= ings > about so new (and nuanced) a feature. Yes, the visual equality of =E1 a= nd =E1 is a > powerful argument, but as Drew said, there will be well-advertised ways= to > both enable this feature, and to toggle it while searching. Users will = not > lose any capacity by our decision, they will simply not experience it a= s a > default out of the box. > > And so, my decision is that this feature will be off by default in the = 25.1 > release, with the genuine hope that it can be made solid enough to beco= me a > default in a future release. It needn't even wait until 26.1, if we rec= eive > enough positive feedback. > > My thanks to everyone for the extensive and conscientious debate, and t= o Eli > for sticking to his guns. I am hopeful we will reach general consensus = over > time, and that this feature will come to be recognized as a compelling = aspect > of the Emacs feature set. Until that day, please forgive me my reservat= ions; > I'm just not there yet in wanting this to become a default behavior. Even if disabled by default before the next release, do you think we still have to polish and finish this feature before the release, so the users willing to enable it would enjoy it bug-free and usable? In case of a positive answer, I have a few ideas how to help achieve this goal.