From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Marcin Borkowski Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some ideas with Emacs Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 13:53:44 +0100 Message-ID: <87v9qysxbb.fsf@mbork.pl> References: <87d0dbszjn.fsf@mbork.pl> <8736e4titj.fsf@mbork.pl> <871rtoti9w.fsf@mbork.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="178407"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: mu4e 1.1.0; emacs 27.0.50 Cc: VanL , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 02 13:54:45 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iblDw-000kDD-Kc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 13:54:44 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35218 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iblDv-0002Ip-DM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 07:54:43 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54159) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iblDN-0002Fv-LO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 07:54:11 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iblDK-0005Nz-6a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 07:54:09 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([195.110.48.8]:45128) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iblDJ-0005Kf-RO; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 07:54:06 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136B8E65B2; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 13:53:54 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Original-Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EOKdsmnNVtZn; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 13:53:48 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (83.25.100.175.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl [83.25.100.175]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 19CE5E6553; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 13:53:48 +0100 (CET) In-reply-to: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 195.110.48.8 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:243001 Archived-At: On 2019-12-02, at 06:41, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > CC licenses with either NC or ND are nonfree licenses. > In particular, ND makes the entire manual into an invariant section. That is precisely the point of using it. Also, _please_ do not use the word "manual" here. A book I'm thinking of would _not_ be a manual - as I mentioned in my previous message, this distinction is crucial here. (I explain one difference below.) > Invariant sections under the GFDL are ok because they are limited > to political points which are outside the practical topic of the manual. > CC-ND would make the technical substance of the manual invariant, > so we would have to reject it. Could you define "political points which are outside the practical topic of the manual"? Here is what I think (not having a definition, only a vague intuition). A _manual_ should be e.g. comprehensive (i.e., cover the whole of its subject). A _book_ on a subject does not have to be so. The topic selection itself might be "political" (depending on the exact understanding of the word). This seems to confirm my intuition that GFDL is a bad choice for books (even though it may be a good choice for manuals). > This, We could not distribute, or even refer to, a manual carrying I would not expect the FSF to distribute such a book. However, "not referring" comes to me as a surprise. The FSF does refer to e.g. MS Windows (in the Emacs manual, of all places). How is a CC-NC/CC-ND book (not "manual"!!!) worse than that? > either of those licenses. Please don't use a GNU mailing list to ask > people to work on them. Frankly, I do not understand that. I think I roughly understand why you consider limiting the freedom of modification of software or manuals a bad thing. But again - this is not a manual we are talking about!!! In your essay on ebooks, you write: "For textbooks and most reference works, publication of modified versions should be allowed as well, since that encourages society to improve them". I think this is not entirely true. I agree that out-of-date textbooks are a danger, but I wouldn't really want to allow non-authors to modify some author's book (even if they are "professional writers", whatever that means). I agree that this is a very shady area - after all, disallowing reuse would put a stop to much of artistic creativity - but I would at least expect a modified version to be (a) easily distinguishable from the original and (b) prepared in such a way that the differeneces between the original and the modified version are visible without specialized tools (like diff). From a cursory examination, GFDL secures (a), but not necessarily (b). And by the way, in the same essay you say: "It did its job well=E2=80=94back then". As a theoretical exercise, would you have a problem with a paper-only (so, no electronic version) book on GNU Emacs, distributed under CC-ND-something, so that people are free to photocopy it? As an even more theoretical exercise, assume I wanted to write a book (again, in the traditional sense - paper only, and either CC-ND or even non-CC altogether - or maybe even electronic version, but with copying prohibited just like with paper books, so with all the law exemptions and no DRMs - by the way, this is roughly how ebooks work in my country) called "Memoirs of an Emacs user", which would be an artistic representation of my process of Emacs and Org-mode gradually embracing my life;-) - possibly including practical tips on Emacs usage? Would you mind talking about it here? Would you mind asking people for input (like, assume I might want to include some short interviews with people from the Emacs community there)? (Note: I'm not saying that I _want_ or _can_ write such a book, or that anyone would find it interesting. I just want to understand your stance on books and what is allowed to talk about here, if only to decide if I agree with you.) Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl