From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8=?= Kayaalp Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:43:16 +0300 Message-ID: <87v9gnq7l7.fsf@gkayaalp.com> References: <87y2lkb6kb.fsf@gmail.com> <87mu1zbh3w.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39671"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 28.0.50 Cc: ghe@sdf.org, rms@gnu.org To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 09 17:44:36 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2Gy-000ABO-03 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 17:44:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34058 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2Gw-0006Pu-V4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 11:44:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44908) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2Fq-0005D8-In for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 11:43:26 -0400 Original-Received: from relay7-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.200]:34981) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2Fm-0000To-ID; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 11:43:26 -0400 X-Originating-IP: 31.206.236.86 Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [31.206.236.86]) (Authenticated sender: self@gkayaalp.com) by relay7-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C6B0B2000A; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 15:43:18 +0000 (UTC) In-reply-to: <87mu1zbh3w.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: none client-ip=217.70.183.200; envelope-from=self@gkayaalp.com; helo=relay7-d.mail.gandi.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/09 10:24:22 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254886 Archived-At: On 2020-09-09 09:26 +03, TEC wrote: [...] > Unfortunately I can't imagine this taking a comparable length of time, > or being nearly as easy. I think experiences like this highlight two major clusters among Emacs users: those who come to Emacs for Emacs, and those whow are attracted to it because it has Org mode (or sth. else, but it seems to be Org mode most of the time). Those who come to Emacs for Emacs are mainly here because they appreciate how Emacs caters to their need for an extensible, customisable system which they can use to build up a computing environment that=E2=80=99s tailor-made for their needs. I fall within this category. I started with a blank init.el some 6 years ago. When I found Org mode or ESS or Elfeed or whatnot, it was because I was actively looking for how to do the relevant thing in Emacs, because I assumed that doing it in Emacs would allow me to sculpt the experience to my liking, fine tune everything, and tie things nicely together. Those who come to Emacs for Org mode, mu4e, or maybe something else (I=E2=80=99ll just say Org mode from here on; assume a dangling =E2=80=98or= maybe something else=E2=80=99 for each instance), are fundamentally different. Y= ou fall into this category. I of course can=E2=80=99t know your particular experience, but what I deduce from reading /r/emacs to this day is this kind of user generally finds out about Emacs as the thing that hosts Org mode. They are mainly interested in Org mode and some related features. They won=E2=80=99t find out about what users like me think are t= he main virtues of Emacs until later, and they won=E2=80=99t find out about how Emacs is traditionally used, customised, until even later. There maybe is a third kind of user who thinks of it just another text editor with some programming support, but I won=E2=80=99t risk more detailed assumptions for this hypothetical category. But, what I=E2=80=99ve described above is IMO something that=E2=80=99ll ren= der itself pretty obvious e.g. if you go to /r/emacs and read it for a week or two. > I'm not sure that Emacs can embrace the behaviours that people who have > primarily experienced the likes of VS Code/Atom/JetBrains/Sublime/etc. > will be looking for, without compromising the experience that long-time > users have come to expect. Perhaps the way forward may be to treat > standard Emacs as a core and prominently offer 'distributions' of Emacs? If what I said above is indeed relevant and truthy, it might be a nice basis for introducing people to Emacs (the term =E2=80=98marketing=E2=80=99= is really ugly, IMHO simply means =E2=80=98to deceive into thinking, with greedy mali= ce=E2=80=99) and proves, along with your experience that you document in your OP, how useful could distributions be to cater to this particular category of users, without compromising others. I=E2=80=99d say we should leave distributions to the community, support the= m and maybe =E2=80=98bless=E2=80=99 the projects that are willing as GNU projects= , and make sure that and are displaying to the users what=E2=80=99s available, possibly with some video introductions for = each which briefly introduce and overview the thing, and also some for a variety of common use cases. -- =C4=B0. G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp / @cadadr / pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427