From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8=?= Kayaalp Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 18:05:33 +0300 Message-ID: <87v9ghson6.fsf@gkayaalp.com> References: <83lfhhijbl.fsf@gnu.org> <871rj9uz12.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <875z8k4wv8.fsf@posteo.net> <83pn6shjni.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911074445.GB5194@tuxteam.de> <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> <87y2lerlhl.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <20200913125332.fnt5sbnrfkgt4qyi@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9791"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 28.0.50 Cc: =?utf-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8=?= Kayaalp , Juri Linkov , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 13 17:11:05 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kHTej-0002TG-Oe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 17:11:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33922 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHTei-0007l0-Oe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 11:11:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44684) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHTZV-0004j7-Ed for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 11:05:41 -0400 Original-Received: from relay10.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.178.230]:44291) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHTZT-0002D4-3p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 11:05:41 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [31.177.204.112]) (Authenticated sender: self@gkayaalp.com) by relay10.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E088324000B; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 15:05:34 +0000 (UTC) In-reply-to: <20200913125332.fnt5sbnrfkgt4qyi@Ergus> Received-SPF: none client-ip=217.70.178.230; envelope-from=self@gkayaalp.com; helo=relay10.mail.gandi.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/13 11:05:36 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255502 Archived-At: On 2020-09-13 15:53 +03, Ergus wrote: > Why the vanilla emacs users almost hasn't increased or has decreases if > the number of programmers has exponentially grow in the world? And > being emacs so powerful and old; how is it possible that it is > frequently not even listed in the GNU/Linux popular editors articles or > it is back in the list? The emacs popularity is so low these days (even > in GNU/Linux users) that some distros still comes with emacs 24. And if > we split spacemacs and doom apart it is almost negligible... we are even > after vim. Those distros are part of the Emacs community. And IMHO a very good part. With them, a very diverse set of users find ways to make use of Emacs. As to why Emacs is not more popular, well, why should it be popular in the first place? I=E2=80=99d say Emacs has thrived in the last decade and personally I=E2=80=99d fancy a stable but content community over a large on= e. > How the emacs modifications (specially spacemacs) have found a set of > frequent developers, and a big younger community? (which is not bigger > because it is a bit overloaded of external packages IMO) Because they are producing great software that helps people in ways Emacs core may not. > How is it possible that all those dummy and young editors have multiple > times more users and community than Emacs when they don't really bring > anything much better than us? That=E2=80=99s insulting to the users and developers of those editors, which are, again, great software. > Are we sure we don't need that "fresh air", "new ideas" and "lot of > work" to be happening in vanilla directly? Even if we (former users) > disagree with some of them and have to add 3, 4 or 10 extra lines to our > config to disable them? Nobody=E2=80=99s against that so long as breakage is not _disastrous_. And certain changes proposed, like those regarding default colours, have the potential to be so. It=E2=80=99s not our configs. It=E2=80=99s many packages that are built up= on those values. Ultimately software evolves and APIs get outdated, but big changes should be done with as much discussion and criticism as possible, so please don=E2=80=99t think that the more conservative members = of the community are trying to hamper the development of Emacs or are gatekeeping. Everyone=E2=80=99s views are important and necessary. > I think that when emacs was created it was a revolutionary thing; it > brought an "easier" way to do "complex" things in that time's standard > and broke many paradigms. Why now we constantly insist in "paradigm of > computing" and "historic reasons" or "because in the 90's ..."? I am a > big supporter of backward compatibility, but sometimes the problem > becomes "evolve or die". You=E2=80=99re over-dramatising it. Emacs was a nice idea that built upon = the paradigm of software it was created in. Lisp machines, screen editors becoming a thing after the introduction of cursor adressable screens. And there=E2=80=99s definitely ways to evolve compatibly. Linux doesn=E2= =80=99t die because not everyone uses Yggdrasil anymore. > Every software has a complex social part; and part of that is to satisfy > general user's needs (because not all the users must be programmers and > even not all programmers have to be lisp programmers or understand the > emacs internals). That=E2=80=99s a false tautology. Not every piece of software needs to sat= isfy every type of users=E2=80=99 needs. In fact, software that tries to do tha= t, dies. -- =C4=B0. G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp / @cadadr / pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427