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[94.133.55.158]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y4sm3612164wmi.22.2021.08.31.15.25.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 31 Aug 2021 15:25:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <634c22fb-5bf1-e30f-a598-336f36b6e89f@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Tue, 31 Aug 2021 22:33:41 +0300") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32f; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273627 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > A move that will at least bring us a functioning bug tracker is a plus > in my book. We are in agreement.=20 > That's an odd statement. First of all, why would quality of code > change? Whatever linters you institute to run on a CI, can run locally > as well. Quality of discussions is also on you. > > gitlab/github/gogs/etc give you tools to make code reviews easier, and > an opportunity to attract many new contributors, but then it's on you > to make them feel welcome, so that they stay around. I'm telling you that code reviews and the ensuing code quality didn't become specially easier when comparing GH/GL to non-GH/GL. There were code reviews with and without these platforms and there were newcomers with and without them. There was no perceptual (from my POV) difference in discussion or proficiency. This was presented as anecdoctal evidence and my subjective judgement, of course. If it sounds "odd" to you, it's totally understandable. > Better "quality of code" can result from attracting strong new > contributors, and looking at how, for example, bug#47711 ended up (a > smart, prolific developer who has authored a number of popular > third-party packages in the same area has now sworn off contributing > to Emacs), Shooting from the hip, heh :-) Well, if you are so troubled by bug#47711 I encourage you to reply there. Not only am I waiting your promised feedback but also it's got absolutely nothing do to with this thread. (IIUC the participants in that bug are familiar and proficient with Emacs's workflows and practices). Bugs don't have to "end up" anywhere without discussion, opposition or study of alternatives: Daniel wants to deprecate a part of Emacs and substitute it with a new one. To my eyes, that's a good idea. I merely had time and means to demonstrate that his patch made Icomplete run about 10% slower. He later thanked me for spotting this regression. I also asked to split up the patch, which is very long and seemed to do many things at once, so that I could more easily review it. After providing an alternative patch, I'm waiting from you and Daniel a translucid demonstration of the somewhat callous claims leveled at it. It's short and speeds up icomplete-mode and flex by about 30%, as requested by none other than you. Indeed, I have been waiting for these things and other things for about 2 weeks, and haven't heard a peep. > or the atmosphere around Eglot, I find it hard to trust your > experience here. Intrigued about the amospheric conditions around Eglot. Should I bring umbrella or sunscreen? >> methods used in Emacs development may in fact be "aces up our >> sleeve", not just a means to appease those that have been using them >> for a number of years. > Sure, let's keep the barriers to contribution, both formal and > informal ones. That will serve us well. I'll just make one last effort to explain my position here. You may legitimately think they e-mail, debbugs, non-modern websites etc are barriers, that they are "bad" to newcomers. That is true, and I agree in part, but it is not the whole story. Some of us are trying to tell you that that manichaeism is an oversimplification: these things are _also_ "good", they are points of interest and value to veterans and at least a certain class of newcomers, perhaps the newcomers that Emacs is interested in attracting. It goes both ways, too: I was once a newcomer and the development practices that I've learned (and still learn) here specifically over the years have been very valuable in my programming career. Just some examples: the deft use of boring old email to structure programming ideas is very very good here. The much-ridiculed GNU-style ChangeLog commit messages are a superb way to review one's own work before presenting it. And I don't miss emojis, thumbsup likes and animated gifs a bit, have to say. Jo=C3=A3o