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* Re: Shrinking the C core
@ 2023-08-13  8:06 Gerd Möllmann
  2023-08-13  9:26 ` Emanuel Berg
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 255+ messages in thread
From: Gerd Möllmann @ 2023-08-13  8:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: incal; +Cc: emacs-devel

> Okay, but here it isn't about joining the CL standard, it is
> the situation that we have "the Lisp editor" yet our Lisp is
> much slower than other people's Lisp, and for no good reason
> what I can understand as Emacs is C, and SBCL is C. What's the
> difference, why is one so much faster than the other?

Just wanted to mention that SBCL is not implemented in C.  It only has a 
small C runtime containing various GC alternatives and hardware/OS 
dependent stuff.  The rest is Lisp, including bignums and compiler.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 255+ messages in thread
* Re: Shrinking the C core
@ 2023-09-12  3:51 Arthur Miller
  2023-09-12  4:47 ` tomas
  2023-09-12 13:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 255+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Miller @ 2023-09-12  3:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tomas; +Cc: emacs-devel


>> IMNSHO, discussing a rewrite of Emacs in _any_ language is waste of
>> time and energy.  We've seen this many times (because people still
>> insist on bringing this up from time to time) [...]
>
>What irks me most in such cases is not the idea itself, or the wish
>to discuss it. It's rather that those people consistently seem to
>want others to do the grunt work. 

Nobody has approached you about anything nor demanding anything from neither you
in particular or anyone else.

>                                  Usually they seem to shy away from
>looking at former attempts and trying to learn something from them.

You have no idea how much research or work I have done or not done before I have
approached malining list. Don't project your BS on me.

>Now this would be an interesting contribution: what's wrong with
>Climacs? What's right? What went wrong with PortableHemlock and

I could actually answer your questions, at least a good deal of what you ask
there if you asked in a friendly and decent manner.

>what can we learn from it?

I know what I have learned about those applicaitons as well as what I have
learned about you.

>Heck, they even seem too lazy to take the discussion to emacs-tangents.

What discussion should I take where? I am not even discussing or even looking at
anything where I am not CC:ed, I am not subscribed to any of Emacs lists. I have
sent one mail to emacs-devel and answer those I am CC:ed to; Link to the one by
Eli you have answered to was sent to me by someone.

>Huffing and puffing about freedom of expression is a bit...
>strange in this context. But seems to be fashionable these days.

And there is always mobsters and lynchmob that like to give shit to other people
to feel themselves better. You should be ashamed of yourself.

The toxic atmosphere like this is why I keep myself away from the Emacs mailing
lists in general. I posted once in about a year or more and offered a patch
and regretted it. If you think I came now just to ask you to write something for
me, think twice.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 255+ messages in thread
* Re: Shrinking the C core
@ 2023-09-12  3:46 Arthur Miller
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 255+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Miller @ 2023-09-12  3:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eliz; +Cc: emacs-devel

>> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 20:43:01 -0400
>> 
>>   > You are right, absolutely, but then I cannot see why people
>>   > can't push for a SBCL rewrite of Emacs?
>> 
>> Because that is not up for decision.  That decision is already made.
>> 
>> If the question were up for decision, arguing for a certain choice
>> would be normal participation.  When it isn't, arguing for a choice is
>> making life difficult.  I have too much work to do, and I can't keep
>> up.  So does Eli.  Eli can speak for himself, but if you make it necessary
>> for me to spend more time on this, that is making difficulties.
>
>IMNSHO, discussing a rewrite of Emacs in _any_ language is waste of
>time and energy.  We've seen this many times (because people still
>insist on bringing this up from time to time).  From where I stand,
>the main reason is not even the fact that we decided not to do that,
>but the fact that such a rewrite will never happen in practice.  Such
>a rewrite is a massive job which requires very good knowledge of Emacs
>internals and features, and a lot of time.  People who come close to
>the required knowledge level are not interested in doing this job
>(because they understand the futility), and those who think it should
>be done simply don't know enough and/or don't have enough time on
>their hands to pull it through.
>
>If Emacs will ever be "rewritten", it will not be Emacs, but a
>text-processing system with a very different architecture and design,
>which will take from the Emacs experience the lessons we learned and
>implement them differently, to produce a system whose starting point
>is closer to the needs of today's users and whose main technologies
>are more modern from the get-go.

Mnjah; you know as well as I, and I have written it in the very first
mail why I want Emacs in Lisp. There are already other applications and
editors inpsired by Emacs, that is not the question. Problem with them
is they can't run Emacs applications and they don't have Emacs manual
and the well written documentation. I think it would be waste of the
effort of many people to throw it away. You may disagree and that is OK.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 255+ messages in thread
* Re: Shrinking the C core
@ 2023-08-27 15:14 Arthur Miller
  2023-08-27 16:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 255+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Miller @ 2023-08-27 15:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel

>> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2023 21:19:11 -0400
>> From: "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com>
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> 
>> Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>:
>> > "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> writes:
>> > 
>> > > When I first worked on Emacs code in the 1980s Lisp was already fast
>> > > enough, and machine speeds have gone up by something like 10^3 since.
>> > > I plain don't believe the "slower" part can be an issue on modern
>> > > hardware, not even on tiny SBCs.
>> > 
>> > Can you promise the same, if your changes are not restricted to one or
>> > two functions in fileio.c, but instead pervade throughout C source?
>> 
>> Yes, in fact, I can. Because if by some miracle we were able to
>> instantly rewrite the entirety of Emacs in Python (which I'm not
>> advocating, I chose it because it's the slowest of the major modern
>> scripting languages) basic considerations of clocks per second would
>> predict it to run a *dead minimum* of two orders of magnitude faster
>> than the Emacs of, say, 1990.
>> 
>> And 1990 Emacs was already way fast enough for the human eye and
>> brain, which can't even register interface lag of less than 0.17
>> seconds (look up the story of Jef Raskin and how he exploited this
>> psychophysical fact in the design of the Canon Cat sometime; it's very
>> instructive). The human auditory system can perceive finer timeslices,
>> down to about 0.02s in skilled musicians, but we're not using elisp
>> for audio signal processing.
> 
> This kind of argument is inherently flawed: it's true that today's
> machines are much faster than those in, say, 1990, but Emacs nowadays
> demands much more horsepower from the CPU than it did back then.
> What's more, Emacs is still a single-threaded Lisp machine, although
> in the last 10 years CPU power develops more and more in the direction
> of multiple cores and execution units, with single execution units
> being basically as fast (or as slow) today as they were a decade ago.
> 
> And if these theoretical arguments don't convince you, then there are
> facts: the Emacs display engine, for example, was completely rewritten
> since the 1990s, and is significantly more expensive than the old one
> (because it lifts several of the gravest limitations of the old
> redisplay).  Similarly with some other core parts and internals.
> 
> We are trying to make Lisp programs faster all the time, precisely
> because users do complain about annoying delays and slowness.  Various
> optimizations in the byte-compiler and the whole native-compilation
> feature are parts of this effort, and are another evidence that the
> performance concerns are not illusory in Emacs.  And we are still not
> there yet: people still do complain from time to time, and not always
> because someone selected a sub-optimal algorithm where better ones
> exist.
> 
> The slowdown caused by moving one primitive to Lisp might be
> insignificant, but these slowdowns add up and eventually do show in
> user-experience reports.  Rewriting code in Lisp also increases the GC
> pressure, and GC cycles are known as one of the significant causes of
> slow performance in quite a few cases.  We are currently tracking the
> GC performance (see the emacs-gc-stats@gnu.org mailing list) for that
> reason, in the hope that we can modify GC and/or its thresholds to
> improve performance.
> 
>> If you take away nothing else from this conversation, at least get it
>> through your head that "more Lisp might make Emacs too slow" is a
>> deeply, *deeply* silly idea. It's 2023 and the only ways you can make
>> a user-facing program slow enough for response lag to be noticeable
>> are disk latency on spinning rust, network round-trips, or operations
>> with a superlinear big-O in critical paths.  Mere interpretive overhead
>> won't do it.
> 
> We found this conclusion to be false in practice, at least in Emacs
> practice.
> 
>> > Finally, you haven't addressed the remainder of the reasons I itemized.
>> 
>> They were too obvious, describing problems that competent software
>> engineers know how to prevent or hedge against, and you addressed me
>> as though I were a n00b that just fell off a cabbage truck. My
>> earliest contributions to Emacs were done so long ago that they
>> predated the systematic Changelog convention; have you heard the
>> expression "teaching your grandmother to suck eggs"?  My patience for
>> that sort of thing is limited.
> 
> Please be more patient, and please consider what others here say to be
> mostly in good-faith and based on non-trivial experience.  If
> something in what others here say sounds like an offense to your
> intelligence, it is most probably a misunderstanding: for most people
> here English is not their first language, so don't expect them to
> always be able to find the best words to express what they want to
> say.

Very interesting discussion going on for a long time.

I think you are all correct, and wrong to an extent, but I believe that
nobody has touched the fundamental issue: emacs design is flawed beyond
repair for todays machines. Not necessarily in pejorative meaning, but
to repair Emacs you would have to significantly rework internals, to the
point of entire design rewrite. Emacs is a child of its time (like
everything else). It was designed for the time of single-core slow
machine, and its design makes sense in that perspective. However, for
todays multicore machines, the fact that a lisp machine is slapped on
top of an existing text editor (Gosslings I guess), and everything is
shared via global state, can't be addressed in any other way but to
rewrite Emacs core from ground up. No amount of patch slapping onto the
current design can compensate for the lack of appropriate desing.

RMS has one abandoned TECO design to adapt Emacs to new times; perhaps
the time has come to do it again.

Sure, you can rework the C core completely, and implement better GC,
threads, and what not, but it seems signficant less work to re-implement
Emacs in a language that already has proper infrastructure in the place,
such as Common Lisp on ccl/sbcl, instead of duplicating all the work.

I understand machines of the time were to slow for a language as big as
Common Lisp when Emacs switched from TECO to C, but today the situation
is different. I am quite sure that sbcl would offer enough speed for a
text editor implementation. As you all have already noticed, speed is
limited by a human factor anyway.

We also see many projects that are duplicating Emacs idea, and with all
right; the ideas of Emacs are indeed sound and very good. But it is a
shame to abandon 40 years of development and the community that Emacs
has, something other projects can't compete with. Emacs Lisp is de
facto, *the* best documented Lisp out there, and Emacs is one of the
best documented open source projects available, kudos for that to
everyone involved. It would be a pittiful waste to just throw away all
that documentation and work done, as well as the vivid community that
Emacs has. In my personal opinon, those are *the* qualities of Emacs as
a project.

I personally believe that Emacs as a project would benefit of complete
core rewrite, as well as unifying the extension and the implementation
language for several reasons. Yes, it is a lot of work, but even
rewriting C core to adapt Emacs to modern machines is a lot of work in
itself, if it is even possible. You can either let it be, and slowly but
surely see Emacs usage decline, or you can rewrite Emacs core (again) to
better suit modern multicore machines.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 255+ messages in thread
* Re: Shrinking the C core
@ 2023-08-13 11:20 Gerd Möllmann
  2023-08-13 12:52 ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 255+ messages in thread
From: Gerd Möllmann @ 2023-08-13 11:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel

 >> AFAIK, all the Emacs-like implementations mentioned on the
 >> web page run on unmodified CL implementations, so you get
 >> the speed of that CL implementation.
 >
 > Uhm, what's an "unmodified CL implementation"?

The implemention as released by the project or vendor.

 >
 > And what implementations are those, you mean they are not as
 > fast as SBCL?

What the Emacs-alikes support varies.  I haven't checked recently, but I 
know that Lem, for instance, started by only supporting SBCL.  Hemlock 
is part of CMUCL and wasn't portable, hence Portable Hemlock.  There's 
also an Emacs-alike that is part of Lispworks' CL implementation 
(commencial).  And so on.  Please consult the project pages.

For some benchmarks on 10 CL implementations, please see

https://www.cliki.net/performance%20benchmarks

BTW, I get DNS errors when sending mail to you via Gmail. Don't know 
what's happening.

Reporting-MTA: dns; dataswamp.org

Final-Recipient: rfc822; incal@dataswamp.org
Action: failed



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 255+ messages in thread
* Re: Shrinking the C core
@ 2023-08-13  7:59 Gerd Möllmann
  2023-08-13  8:44 ` Emanuel Berg
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 255+ messages in thread
From: Gerd Möllmann @ 2023-08-13  7:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: incal; +Cc: emacs-devel

> But maybe one could integrate parts of that solution into
> Emacs to have the cake and eat it as well. Is the CL in
> CL-Emacs as fast as compiled CL from SBCL?

AFAIK, all the Emacs-like implementations mentioned on the web page run 
on unmodified CL implementations, so you get the speed of that CL 
implementation.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 255+ messages in thread
* Shrinking the C core
@ 2023-08-09  9:46 Eric S. Raymond
  2023-08-09 10:55 ` Andreas Schwab
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 255+ messages in thread
From: Eric S. Raymond @ 2023-08-09  9:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel

Recently I have been refamiliarizing myself with the Emacs C core.

Some days ago, as a test that I understand the C core API and the
current build recipe, I made and pushed a small commit that moved
the policy code in delete-file out to Lisp, basing it on a smaller
and simpler new entry point named delete-file-internal (this is
parallel to the way delete-directory is already partitioned).

I've since been poking around the C core code and am now wondering why
there is so much C-core code that seems like it could be pushed out to
Lisp.  For example, in src/fileio.c:

DEFUN ("unhandled-file-name-directory", Funhandled_file_name_directory,
       Sunhandled_file_name_directory, 1, 1, 0,
       doc: /* Return a directly usable directory name somehow associated with FILENAME.
A `directly usable' directory name is one that may be used without the
intervention of any file name handler.
If FILENAME is a directly usable file itself, return
\(file-name-as-directory FILENAME).
If FILENAME refers to a file which is not accessible from a local process,
then this should return nil.
The `call-process' and `start-process' functions use this function to
get a current directory to run processes in.  */)
  (Lisp_Object filename)
{
  Lisp_Object handler;

  /* If the file name has special constructs in it,
     call the corresponding file name handler.  */
  handler = Ffind_file_name_handler (filename, Qunhandled_file_name_directory);
  if (!NILP (handler))
    {
      Lisp_Object handled_name = call2 (handler, Qunhandled_file_name_directory,
					filename);
      return STRINGP (handled_name) ? handled_name : Qnil;
    }

  return Ffile_name_as_directory (filename);
}

Why is this in C? Is there any reason not to push it out to Lisp and
reduce the core complexity?  More generally, if I do this kind of
refactor, will I be stepping on anyone's toes?
--
						>>esr>>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 255+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2023-09-17 23:03 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 255+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2023-08-13  8:06 Shrinking the C core Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13  9:26 ` Emanuel Berg
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2023-09-12  3:51 Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  4:47 ` tomas
2023-09-12 13:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-12  3:46 Arthur Miller
2023-08-27 15:14 Arthur Miller
2023-08-27 16:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28  5:32   ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-28  6:23     ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  6:21   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  1:31 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28  5:50   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 12:20     ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 14:39       ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:17         ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:41           ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  1:41 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  2:53   ` chad
2023-08-28  3:43   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28  4:53   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  5:36     ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  6:55       ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  7:31         ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  8:06           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 14:30             ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:09               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-29  2:20                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:14               ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:36                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29  4:07                   ` Po Lu
2023-08-31  1:07                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 14:08           ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:08             ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:06               ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29  4:15                 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 11:50                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-29  3:57               ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01  1:18                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-31  2:07             ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-01 14:58               ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01 16:36                 ` tomas
2023-09-04  1:32                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-04  1:44                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-04  5:49                     ` Rudolf Schlatte
2023-09-04 14:08                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  1:21                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-07  1:54                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  7:02                         ` tomas
2023-09-07  7:36                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-07  7:56                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  8:19                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-07  8:39                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  9:28                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-09  1:00                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-09  6:25                                     ` Po Lu
2023-09-09  7:24                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07  9:31                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07  9:39                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-09  1:06                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11  0:43                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:24                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-11 12:43                             ` tomas
2023-09-13  5:59                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-12  4:44                             ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-12 12:25                               ` João Távora
2023-09-12 11:31                             ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-09-13  6:12                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-05  4:23                   ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06  0:58               ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-06  1:12                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-06  5:04                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06 11:29                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-09-06 23:03                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  7:00                       ` tomas
2023-09-07  7:23                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  5:30                     ` Po Lu
2023-09-07  6:15                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11  0:43                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:05                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 23:55                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-13  6:34                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  8:51                       ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-09-07  9:20                         ` Po Lu
2023-09-07  9:34                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-08  2:00                     ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-08  7:35                       ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-09 10:05                         ` João Távora
2023-09-08 17:58                       ` Bob Rogers
2023-09-15 21:59                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-17 23:03                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09  0:39                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09 12:50                     ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  0:27                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28  7:45       ` Andrea Monaco
2023-08-28 14:35         ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-13 11:20 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13 12:52 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13  7:59 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13  8:44 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-09  9:46 Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 10:55 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 11:03   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 11:29     ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 12:34 ` Po Lu
2023-08-09 15:51   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 23:56     ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  1:19       ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10  1:47         ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10  1:58         ` Eric Frederickson
2023-08-10  2:07           ` Sam James
2023-08-10  2:44             ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  6:48             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:21               ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:19             ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:56               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11  5:46               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11  8:45                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 11:24                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11 12:12                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 13:16                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10  2:28         ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  4:15           ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10  7:44         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:54           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-10 23:49           ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-11  0:03             ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-11  8:24               ` Immanuel Litzroth
2023-08-11  7:03             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11  7:19               ` tomas
2023-08-11 10:57               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 11:28         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-08-10 21:26           ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-12  2:46           ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-12  3:22             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  8:33               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 15:58                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  9:13                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13  9:55                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 10:23                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13 20:55                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  0:13                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 18:32               ` tomas
2023-08-12 22:08                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 23:09                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  5:50                   ` tomas
2023-08-13  8:38                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  8:00                   ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-13  9:21                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  7:27                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-14  7:36                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  7:50                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-15 22:57                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-16 10:27                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-19 13:29                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20  5:09                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  6:51                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20  7:14                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  7:52                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 13:01                                           ` tomas
2023-08-20 13:12                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  8:28                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20  9:29                                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 15:22                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 15:36                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 15:45                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 15:54                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:29                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:37                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:31                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:07                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-27  3:53                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 19:15                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 19:24                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  2:33                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21  4:11                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  4:15                                                                       ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  4:36                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  4:43                                                                           ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  5:06                                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  5:34                                                                               ` Po Lu
2023-08-27  2:04                                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21  7:59                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-27  5:31                                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  6:16                                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 10:48                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:56                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:22                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28  4:41                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 11:27                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:15                                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 20:39                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  5:59                                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  6:23                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:21                                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  7:26                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:52                                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 10:46                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:02                                                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-27  4:01                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:53                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  3:48                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  9:06                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  3:25                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:55                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:03                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:34                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:25                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:02                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 20:11                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 21:09                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26  2:01                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-26  5:48                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-26 18:15                                                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26 18:27                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:14                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:44                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:11                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  2:35                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21  8:48                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:10                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:59                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:23                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-23 10:13                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:32                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21  6:19                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  6:26                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:21                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  7:25                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:52                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:26                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 23:55                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-23  7:04                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 17:24                                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-24 20:02                                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-18  8:35                               ` Aurélien Aptel
2023-08-19 13:32                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-31  1:41                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  2:36                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-14  4:12                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 11:15                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12  3:28             ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12  3:48               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  3:50               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  6:00                 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12  6:02               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-12  7:38                 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-09 12:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 16:11   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 16:44     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 17:57       ` Eric S. Raymond

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