From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 21:59:02 +0200 Message-ID: <87v8ati29l.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <831qdlpoye.fsf@gnu.org> <83sf5xhnym.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdhk49w.fsf@dataswamp.org> <25914.49745.111873.734458@orion.rgrjr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34250"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:u8Z78zXgXFd/SvDOY+GR48fISG0= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 27 07:27:50 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qwFNu-0008Ya-30 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:27:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qwFN3-0008Ue-0Q; Fri, 27 Oct 2023 01:26:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qw6Vf-0002kn-8D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:59:15 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qw6Vc-0006zM-PG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:59:14 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qw6Vb-0004jr-1J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 21:59:11 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 27 Oct 2023 01:26:53 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311923 Archived-At: Bob Rogers wrote: > Even before CL, Lisp systems tended to be memory-hungry. > Common Lisp was designed as a large language, for a future > where memory would be cheap. That future eventually came, > but before it came the PC boom, when tiny systems with > relatively tiny amounts of RAM ruled the roost. And Lisp was > neglected even on more powerful workstations; some of you > will rememeber the Sun Sparcstation Pmeg problem that caused > page table thrashing if you tried to allocate more than > 16MB. (This is an over- simplification for why Lisp > popularity declined, of course.) Before the PC: too memory-hungry On the PCs: not enough RAM On the workstations: neglected > This complexity and the resulting complications, I believe, > are what Richard was trying to avoid when he designed Emacs > Lisp to be a simpler dialect of Lisp, and why he sees > cl-lib.el as a trojan horse that is changing Emacs Lisp. If so, it has certainly succeeded! There used to be 'labels', 'incf', and 'decf' in Elisp. Now, not only do they face competition from `cl-labels', `cl-incf', and `cl-decf' - they don't exist anymore. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal