From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Brockman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: mouse-1-click-follows-link Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:34:05 +0200 Message-ID: <87u0jzqs02.fsf@wigwam.deepwood.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1118867435 9976 80.91.229.2 (15 Jun 2005 20:30:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:30:35 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 15 22:30:27 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DieW2-0004Rq-8S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:29:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DiebJ-0007br-1M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:35:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DieZZ-0006v9-CQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:33:17 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DieZM-0006lz-41 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:33:07 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DieZK-0006k2-LC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:33:02 -0400 Original-Received: from [80.91.229.2] (helo=ciao.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA:16) (Exim 4.34) id 1DieYm-0000z2-Mn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:32:29 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DieRB-0003dj-2T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:24:37 +0200 Original-Received: from c-4fb670d5.028-10-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se ([213.112.182.79]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:24:37 +0200 Original-Received: from daniel by c-4fb670d5.028-10-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2005 22:24:37 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-Lines: 151 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-4fb670d5.028-10-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se X-Face: :&2UWGm>e24)ip~'K@iOsA&JT3JX*v@1-#L)=dUb825\Fwg#`^N!Y*g-TqdS AevzjFJe96f@V'ya8${57/T'"mTd`1o{TGYhHnVucLq!D$r2O{IN)7>.0op_Y`%r;/Q +(]`3F-t10N7NF\.Mm0q}p1:%iqTi:5]1E]rDF)R$9.!,Eu'9K':y9^U3F8UCS1M+A$ 8[[[WT^`$P[vu>P+8]aQMh9giu&fPCqLW2FSsGs User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:+DLiQER+Cfw/BmeHoSsXrxjAMYw= X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:38909 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:38909 "Drew Adams" writes: > Here's what I said before: [...] > 4. The default value for buffers that are dense with hot spots > (e.g. Dired, grep, compilation) and for which users will likely > want to set point occasionally should be `double' (double-click > follows link). > > 5. The default value for buffers that are dense with hot spots, > but for which users don't need to set point at all (eg. Buffer > List) should be 100 ms (fast click follows link). (There are > probably few such standard buffers.) > > (1) I've changed my opinion on #4 and #5. By default, the value > should be `nil' everywhere: mouse-1 should *not* follow links. > > Reasons: > > a. mouse-2 as yank is not needed on a link, so mouse-2 is a > perfect choice for following links. That was surely behind the > original design, and it remains the best argument for mouse-2. > Having mouse-1 sometimes follow a link and sometimes set point > (e.g. via different delays), in the same buffer, always involves > some UI tradeoffs (fast-click, slow-click, double-click). > That's OK, but it should not be the _default_ behavior anywhere. Why does it matter what the ``default'' behavior is? Buffers don't contain links by ``default.'' [...] > c. Newbies will discover mouse-2 for links soon enough. They will > need to discover it for yanking, anyway; it is no harder to learn > it for linking. Except that mouse-2 is used for yank in almost all other applications that run under X, so users will already be familiar with this binding. I realize that Windows users are another story. > Up front, we should: > > (i) Tell them about mouse-2 for linking. > (ii) Suggest they try it for a while ("try it; you'll like it"). > (iii) Tell them they can change it: mouse-1-click-follows-link. Or we could just make the obvious binding the default (which we have, of course, already done). Don't get me wrong: I don't have anything against trying to push users into changing their preferences to the better. It's just that I don't consider this preference to be better. However, I'm all for making the Dvorak input method the default and telling users what you suggested: ``try it; you'll like it!'' > d. It is not difficult to go back and forth between mouse-2 for > linking in Emacs and mouse-1 in other apps. That's a totally subjective statement. Here, I'll make another: It _is_ difficult to go back and forth between mouse-2 for linking in Emacs and mouse-1 in other apps. > We all do it all the time. So what? You've had years to get used to it. I do lots of things all the time that I wouldn't expect a random person to be comfortable with doing the way I do, yet they aren't ``difficult.'' > The argument that people are "used to mouse-1 for linking" is > countered by c plus d - there are two aspects to it. It isn't countered by c (because people who use X are already familiar with mouse-2 for yanking), and it isn't countered by d (because the fact that using another binding is not difficult once you're used to it doesn't change the fact that people are already used to mouse-1). So I don't see how the argument is countered by ``c plus d.'' > (2) As I said in October, and which led to Kim coming up with using > mouse-1 for linking, we should change the finger-pointer cursor over > links. The index-finger pointer _suggests_ using mouse-1. Actually, that's another good reason for using mouse-1. The only good ways to indicate that something is a link is to (a) underline the text, and (b) change the pointer to a hand when it hovers the text. Both of these also strongly indicate that mouse-1 follows the link. So what do you suggest we use to indicate that something is a link that you follow using mouse-2? Overlining the text and changing the pointer to a foot? [...] > My last point: > > (3) We should make decisions about the extent (and placement) of hot > zones (links, buttons) based on other criteria, besides a tradeoff > between setting point and following a link - that is a red herring. Only if we switch back to using mouse-2 for following links. > We should design hot zones assuming that there is no problem setting > point: assume that mouse-1 sets point and mouse-2 activates > hot spots. This is a hypothetical discussion, based on the assumption that we will change the binding for following links back to mouse-2. The equivalent discussion based upon reality would assume that some people will be using mouse-1, and others will be using mouse-2. > So, in particular, I repeat that full-line links are better for > buffers like grep, compilation, and Dired, because of the alignment > aid and ease of use they provide. I don't understand the alignment thing. What is that all about? > If Emacs doesn't do this by default, it should at least provide an > easy way for users to get this behavior. That sounds reasonable. > To repeat: > > 8. Users should be able to have full-line hot zones for buffers > that are essentially lists of links. This includes grep, > compilation, and Dired. RMS has apparently decided to reduce the > hot-zone size for grep. I prefer full-line links. It would be > good for users to be able to customize this, regardless of the > default behavior. > > IOW, because of the recent move to mouse-1 following links (even > potentially), we are now losing full-line links in grep. People > accidentally followed links (me too), so the hot zones are now > being reduced to alleviate this problem. > > I don't agree with that solution to the problem, but all I would > ask for is a way for users to get back the full-line link > behavior. Mouse-1 is extremely customizable now via > mouse-1-click-follows-links, but the hot-zone extent is not > customizable at all, without rewriting the grep/compile code. Would it be enough if every such mode had a local setting for this? -- Daniel Brockman