From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 16:04:24 +0200 Organization: Informatimago Message-ID: <87txhb3a8n.fsf@informatimago.com> References: <523ED74D.4030205@online.de> <87ioxs4zc9.fsf@informatimago.com> <87k3i8vj93.fsf@yandex.ru> <83bo3kk6hh.fsf@gnu.org> <87eh8gzee5.fsf@yandex.ru> <871u4go1bp.fsf@gmail.com> <523FD9B2.9030304@online.de> <834n9cj9s3.fsf@gnu.org> <523FEE11.3050703@online.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1379945242 6603 80.91.229.3 (23 Sep 2013 14:07:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 14:07:22 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 23 16:07:24 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VO6nL-0002yH-O6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 16:07:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40885 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO6nL-0001N2-5F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 10:07:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38087) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO6mL-0000G2-76 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 10:06:26 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO6mF-0007YX-Tz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 10:06:21 -0400 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:60670) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VO6mF-0007XA-Nl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 10:06:15 -0400 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VO6mA-0002Qz-SP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 16:06:10 +0200 Original-Received: from amontsouris-651-1-181-163.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr ([82.123.60.163]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 16:06:10 +0200 Original-Received: from pjb by amontsouris-651-1-181-163.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2013 16:06:10 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 43 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: amontsouris-651-1-181-163.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAQMAAABtzGvEAAAABlBMVEUAAAD///+l2Z/dAAAA oElEQVR4nK3OsRHCMAwF0O8YQufUNIQRGIAja9CxSA55AxZgFO4coMgYrEDDQZWPIlNAjwq9 033pbOBPtbXuB6PKNBn5gZkhGa86Z4x2wE67O+06WxGD/HCOGR0deY3f9Ijwwt7rNGNf6Oac l/GuZTF1wFGKiYYHKSFAkjIo1b6sCYS1sVmFhhhahKQssRjRT90ITWUk6vvK3RsPGs+M1RuR mV+hO/VvFAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Accept-Language: fr, es, en User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.2 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ZmI5NmM2MzBkYzUzOTFjNTRkYjA2YjY0ZDU0ZDYwOGE1NWY3OTI0OA== X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:163580 Archived-At: Andreas Röhler writes: > Am 23.09.2013 09:07, schrieb Eli Zaretskii: >>> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 08:03:30 +0200 >>> From: Andreas Röhler >>> >>> Am 23.09.2013 02:18, schrieb Lennart Borgman: >>>> The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the >>>> new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-) >>> >>> Putting users first attention at that kind of matter, it also spreads a quit unjust and wrong impression WRT Emacs and it's people. >>> >>> That tutorial probably was okay twenty years ago. >>> No it reads as vim's ":q" is envied, proving emacs can make it difficult too. >> >> When did you read it last time? also 20 years ago? >> > > > At the very first screen C-v is presented. > Nowadays keyboards commonly have an own key for it, no need to bother beginners with this. > While later, certainly, it's preferable. > > Next screen tells about C-p, C-n > That must have been changed very recently ;) Perhaps. On the other hand, I use C-v M-v C-p and C-n much much more often than the arrows and pgup/down keys, just for the 10 cm out (+ 10 cm back) I would have to move my hand to use them. I only use arrows when I don't have my hands on the keyboards in the first place, and even, to scroll down SPC is in a lot of mode much more convenient too. What I mean is that perhaps concentrating on keys is the wrong thing to do, vs. concentrating on bindings and the fact that you can configure them as you want, and that the default bindings (foremost the oldest of them) are quite _optimized_. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/